Talk: Zionism

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See also: Talk:Zionism/archive1, Talk:Zionism/archive2, Talk:Zionism/archive3 Talk:Zionism/archive4, Talk:Zionism/archive5

Contents

1 Zionism as a "controversial" political movement 2 A suggestion 3 at most only 20-25 percent of Jews worldwide 4 Ideological vs political movement 5 This article is totally disputed 5.1 True. Here are some examples 6 Zionism doesn't change meaning depending on the speaker 7 Featured article status 8 Land Purchase 9 Madagascar

Zionism as a "controversial" political movement

I've added the following qualifications, which I think strike a fair compromise between some of the competing POV regarding this article:

"sometimes controversial political movement"

Zionism is more controversial than most political movements, so labelling it as such is accurate and informative. However, recognizing that the term "controversial" itself can be treated pejoratively, I qualified it as "sometimes controversial"

"the location commonly believed to be the site of the ancient Kingdom of Israel"

There is some dispute as to the historical accuracy in this case. Rather than get into that in any detail, I thought this was a suitable way of qualifying the claim while still emphasizing the most common POV.

There is no dispute among serious historians and archeologists regarding the historical accuracy of this "claim"; those who promote this view have agendas which do not coincide with historical accuracy. Jayjg 17:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I couldn't find any major issues I could address, other than the "Zionism == Racism" argument. I really think that deserves at least a mention here, since it is such a widespread view -- but I'm not sure how to do that. I don't think mention on Anti-Zionism is sufficient, since I'd like to understand more of the Zionist reaction and defense as well.

--Wclark 15:43, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

The issue is mentioned here, and discussed in the appropriate article anti-Zionism; a link is provided. Jayjg 17:20, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

NOTE TO PARTICIPANTS IN THE ONGOING EDIT WAR Please stop reverting articles, and discuss here instead. I'd thought my most recent changes were a suitable compromise between competing POV, but apparently you disagree -- yet you did not read my comments here. Please make an attempt to discuss the issue, rather than revert without thinking. --Wclark 16:33, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

"yet you did not read my comments here". I didn't know you had access to tracking tools to see what I'm reading on Wikipedia. I reverted your edit because I disagree with your premise that "Zionism is more controversial than most political movements" -- you are right that all political movements are controversial, that's almost inherent (if not completely inherent) in being political. So until you think that editing the democracy article by putting in the very first line before anything else that "Democracry is a sometimes controversial form of government" is a good idea, please don't riddle the introduction of Zionism with this POV. Saying that "Zionism is a political movement" is not POV already and all the manners in which Zionism is controversial are discussed thoroughly in this article.

P.S. What does "sometimes" mean in terms of being controversial? When has Zionism not been controversial? Jewbacca 16:40, Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)

How about you get agreement on any changes you want to make first, then (if they're agreed to) put them in. That makes more sense to me. Jayjg 17:20, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

My point is that Zionism is probably best known (among non-Jews in particular) for the controversy surrounding it, than for any other characteristic. The controversy – much of which centers around the argument that Zionism is a form of racism – isn't even mentioned in the article. Perhaps a better way to bring it up would be to have a section that brings together various opposition points (including those of some orthodox jews et al. which could be moved from their current locations). It just strikes me as particularly odd that a subject that most people probably first encounter in the context of controversy doesn't make any mention of that. I realize that "controversial" can be used as a slight, which is why I attempted to qualify it -- but surely there is some way of mentioning this that isn't pejorative? --Wclark 16:51, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

As has been pointed out many times before, all political movements are "controversial" or "sometimes controversial", thus the phrase adds nothing to the description of the movement. And adding this qualifier to this article alone, and not to the descriptions of all other political movements, is not NPOV. Jayjg 17:11, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Not all political movements are known primarily for the controversy surrounding them. I'd argue that most people who have heard the term "Zionism" heard it in the context of the "Zionism is racism" argument (or simply in the context of general non-specific dispute). Many people know nothing else about Zionism other than the controversy. Your objection seems to be that labelling Zionism "controversial" is an attempt to subtly discredit it, and I agree wholeheartedly that it can be taken that way -- but the fact remains that the controversy needs to be mentioned somewhere in the article, and pretty prominently, since for many people it's the most important aspect. How would you suggest accomplishing this, if not through something akin to my original suggestion? --Wclark 17:29, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

Hmm, what are Communism and Fascism and Capitalism known for, non-controversy? And have you taken a poll to see how "most" people think of Zionism? No, you haven't, and in any event it wouldn't be relevant. My objection to labelling Zionism "controversial" is that it is meaningless, irrelevant, POV, and does not follow Wikipedia standard. The controversy is indeed mentioned "somewhere" in the article, in the exact same general area that controversies about other topics are mentioned. You know, "most" people have a view of "Jew" as controversial as well, perhaps as Zionist Arab killers, secret world dominators, big nosed bankers, Christ killers, communists, etc. Should that view be mentioned "pretty prominently" in the Jew article, since that's what "most" people think of when they think of Jews? Jayjg 19:45, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

De-indenting because it's getting too deep.

Yes, as a matter of fact, I have taken such polls (though not anything approaching a representative sample, since they were conducted on a University campus years ago) – but as you point out (and I agree) that's not relevant. The point is that a significant number of people only know about the controversy surrounding Zionism, and practically nothing of the other details. The article as it stands does an excellent job of explaining those other details – but it mentions the controversy only briefly and in a disorganized manner. I apologize for missing this reference to the "Zionism is Racism" argument:

In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution which said 
that "Zionism is a form of racism." This resolution was rescinded in 1991.
This issue is discussed in the article on anti-Zionism.

However, it's nowhere near the other mentions of opposing views (in particular, those of orthodox Jews) and in general the opposing positions aren't clearly represented. I want to state that I do not support those opposing views. I simply think they should be clearly presented to the reader, since they represent the only thing many people know about Zionism, and if they are hard to find in the text then it gives the impression of bias. I think they should perhaps be organized into a common section, or else a reference and link to Anti-Zionism should be made closer to the beginning of the article. Do you have other suggestions? --Wclark 20:58, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

Maybe the same type of phrasing could be used to describe Zionism as is used here (from Right of return):

The Palestinian Arab right of return is a hotly disputed topic in Middle East politics

Is "hotly disputed topic" preferable to "controversial"? --Wclark 21:46, 2004 Jul 20 (UTC)

No. The only relevant, necessary and NPOV thing to say about Zionism in the opening sentence is that it is a political movement. Saying that it is "controversial" or "hotly disputed" political movement is (a) tautological, because all political movements by definition are controversial and hotly disputed, and (b) POV, because it seeks to place Zionism in a category seperate from all other political movements, namely "hotly disputed ones." What this really means is "movements with which the majority of right-thinking Wikipedians have no sympathy." The opening sentence should be left as it is. Adam 10:04, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

That's not what "controversy" officially means (whatever that means!), and it's certainly not what I meant by it. However, it seems to be a common misunderstanding so I'll concede the point (see Controversy and the discussion on Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Controversy for more on the popular misconceptions about this term). However, if the term is going to be invariably taken in a pejorative manner, then it should really be removed from all articles on the Wikipedia. I'm going to raise a discussion on the Village pump about this, to see what others think about it in general. --Wclark 16:19, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

I agree with Adam. User:Zero0000 12:24, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I also agree with Adam; highlighting the "controversy" is un-Wiki for all sorts of reasons, most of them relating to POV. And the point of an encyclopedia article is not to reflect the ignorance or prejudice of "most readers", but to educate them on the facts about the subject. Jayjg 15:31, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, that isn't what I agreed to. The question was whether it is right to call Zionism "controversial" in the introductory sentence. I agree with Adam's argument that it is not right, and I think even putting it in the opening paragraph is doubtful. That doesn't prevent controversies from being aired elsewhere in the article (although one would assume that anti-Zionism is where most of such material would go). --Zero 15:46, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Which is what I've been saying all along as well. The controversy is aired elsewhere in the article, and a link provided to anti-Zionism where the main discussion takes place. Jayjg 16:32, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think the controversies should be aired in the article at all – I was suggesting they be more clearly mentioned (and that perhaps a link to Anti-Zionism should be more prominently placed near the open). The fact of the matter is that Zionism is a more controversial political movement than most (in the sense that there is more controversy surrounding it than most, regardless of whether this controversy is justified in any way). The vast majority of college students at Rutgers University in the early 1990's were only aware that there was some sort of heated dispute regarding Zionism and knew practically nothing else about the topic (based on a poll I helped conduct for a research paper), and I'd argue that the same is most likely true for the majority of non-Jews in general. If a topic is widely known to be hotly disputed, yet this dispute is barely mentioned in the article, that's going to come across as white-washing. That's my motivation here (to avoid the appearance of bias in the article) and surely there must be some way of achieving that goal without using any offensive terms or without giving undue importance to opposing views. Can anyone here suggest something that might work? --Wclark 16:29, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Zionism is not "a more controversial political movement than most", your tiny and unrepresentative straw poll notwithstanding. I'm sure if you asked the average American what they knew of Marxism, their responses would be equally poorly informed. And as I said above, the purpose of an article is not to reflect the ignorance of the reader, but to enlighten the reader. Injecting bias to avoid the appearance of bias is self defeating. What is currently there works just fine. Jayjg 16:36, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Yes, Zionism is more controversial than most other political movements. Simply do a search for "controversial+zionism" and you'll find plenty of agreement on that point, from all across the political spectrum. Your complaint seems to be with the term "controversial", and you need to realize it's not always pejorative (and wasn't originally meant as such, until the media started abusing it). Would "divisive" better suit your tastes? "Frequently and emotionally debated"? Yes, Marxism, Feminism, and countless others fit into this category as well. For the most part topics like child labor are not (although in certain areas of the world they are no doubt still considered controversial topics). The purpose of an article is to provide information in as neutral a manner as possible -- PERIOD. The fact that Zionism is a "hot topic" in international discourse is important and warrants a mention. That's not bias. Now, would you please stop getting so hung up on terminology and help come up with a reasonable way of making this point? --Wclark 17:05, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Your arguments re: controversial have already been refuted; see Adam et al above. The "controversial" nature of the movement has already been recognized in this page, and discussed at length in the anti-Zionism. I understand you see a need to make it more prominent; however, as I said earlier, introducing bias to avoid the appearance of bias is self defeating. Jayjg 17:34, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

De-indented again because it got too deep

*sigh*

Nobody refuted anything above. Adam's (implied) definition of "political movement" is wrong, as is his interpretation of what "controversial" means. I agreed that people misunderstand that term to be purely pejorative, so it's not a point worth pursuing. The fact remains that Zionism is a topic about which a great many people frequently enter into emotional debate, and that this happens more when discussing Zionism than with most (not all) other political topics. I can't understand why you won't acknowledge this blatantly obvious point. It doesn't reflect poorly on Zionism in any way, shape, or form, and is not a biased viewpoint – in fact, the same exact point applies to Anti-Zionism so it couldn't possibly reflect poorly upon Zionism. Would you consider it biased to say that abortion is a highly divisive issue? I simply consider it a neutral fact. It doesn't say anything about which side in the debate is right, only that the debate itself tends to get rather intense (and moreso than with other topics). I agree that adding bias to counter another bias is a bad idea, but that's not what I'm suggesting here. --Wclark 18:19, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Tell you what, why don't you work on beefing up the In 1975 the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution which said that "Zionism is a form of racism." This resolution was rescinded in 1991. This issue is discussed in the article on anti-Zionism. sentence in some way to reflect the current controversy that is going on, and present it here. Jayjg 18:42, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Funny you should mention that sentence, I was just looking it over again. I don't think it necessarily needs to be "beefed up" since it already says enough (and provides a link where the interested reader can find out more). It's more that I think it should be moved from its current location, since it's hard to find (and I wouldn't have expected it at the tail end of a section that outlines the history of Israel). Since I don't see where else it could really go (and upon further review of the article, I no longer think that moving the information on opposing views from orthodox Jews makes sense) but since I really do think the link to Anti-Zionism needs to be more prominantly placed than at the end of an inappropriate section, how about this: Dropping the mention of the UN resolution (which really belongs entirely in Anti-Zionism, I think) and placing some other mention and link to Anti-Zionism closer to the opening of the article? That way we don't necessarily have to mention the (controversial) controversy directly, but can accomplish the same effect by directing readers to the Anti-Zionism page if what they're really looking for is information on the debate. --Wclark 18:57, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

I'm game, but what specifically do you think should be done? Jayjg 19:21, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

How about something like this (second sentence added):

Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) holding that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. This characterization of Zionism is questioned by some (but not all) anti-Zionists, although few competing definitions have any widespread acceptance in the international community. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish National Homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.

I don't like the phrasing, but I can't figure out how to improve it without introducing too much bias one way or the other. I'd drop the original sentence (mentioning the UN resolution) entirely, since I don't think it really belongs in the section on the history of Israel anyway. --Wclark 19:58, 2004 Jul 21 (UTC)

Absolutely not. The first section is for explaining what it is, not what talking about various controversies related to it. You can put more wording in about the controversy, and move it to a "better" place in the article, but it certainly does not belong in the first section. Jayjg 20:17, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The anti-Zionist response to Zionism is arguably one of the best-known aspects, and therefore warrants a mention early in the article. I've posted some research to back up this claim at User:Wclark/Zionism (in the interest of saving space here). --Wclark 03:18, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)

Early in the article? Perhaps. In the first paragraph? Absolutely not. Jayjg 03:22, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I don't think you'd like how early in the article I'm thinking (as in, the first section following the opening, in a section entitled "anti-Zionism" or something similar). I really think the controversy surrounding Zionism needs to be made clear almost immediately, and making mention of anti-Zionism (with a link) is probably the most NPOV way of doing so (since terms like "controversial" "disputed" etc. are so problematic). I'm not going to compromise on this if the only thing you have to say in response is "absoultely not." I spent a good amount of time compiling some research to back up my position, and if you expect me to accept your argument that mentioning anti-Zionism in the opening portion of the article is either unnecessary (or even detrimental) then I expect you to do the same. --Wclark 03:42, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)

That Zionism is controversial was never in question. Nor is the fact that there is a propaganda war going on against Israel and Zionism on the Internet (and elsewhere), and that this propaganda war is far more visible and well known than most. The point is that this is an article about Zionism, not about anti-Zionism, which has a whole big article devoted to it. The Wikipedia standard is to mention related topics, and then link to them in other articles. This article has done so. Jayjg 05:31, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

A suggestion

I suggest that new paragraphs be installed in the introductory section as follows:

Zionism is a political movement among Jews (although supported by some non-Jews) holding that the Jewish people constitute a nation and are entitled to a national homeland. Formally founded in 1897, Zionism embraced a variety of opinions in its early years on where that homeland might be established. From 1917 it focused on the establishment of a Jewish National Homeland or state in Palestine, the location of the ancient Kingdom of Israel. Since 1948, Zionism has been a movement to support the development and defence of the State of Israel, and to encourage Jews to settle there.

Since the establishment of Israel, and particularly since the Six Day War of 1967, which placed Israel in occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, the objectives and methods of the Zionist movement and its major achievement, the State of Israel, have come under increasing criticism. The Arab world opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine from the outset, but during the course of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians since 1967, the legitimacy of Israel, and thus of Zionism, has been increasingly questioned in the wider world. Since the failure of the Oslo Accords and the launching of the second intifada in 2001, attacks on Zionism in media, intellectual and political circles, particularly in Europe, have reached new levels of intensity.

This article is intended to be a survey of the history and objectives of the Zionist movement, not a history of Israel or the Arab-Israeli conflict. The history of the various forms of opposition to Zionism is discussed at the article anti-Zionism.

Adam 04:51, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. Jayjg 05:32, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Adam, I'm not sure whether that third paragraph is something you're suggesting go into the article, or whether it's your own commentary. I agree with the sentiment, but I find it somewhat jarring when articles go all meta on themselves. Also, I think that second paragraph might be a bit of overkill. I think it would be fine to chop it after the first sentence, and follow up with something that mentions and links to Anti-Zionism. However, if you think the added detail is useful, I'm not opposed to it. --Wclark 05:44, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)

I'm confused as well; Adam, were you proposing that new intro, or opposing it? Jayjg 07:07, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I am proposing all three paragraphs as a new intro section. I don't see anything wrong with an article commenting on itself as the 3rd para does. If the 2nd para is thought to be too detailed, it can be edited back. But I think we need to acknowledge that this article will be endlessly attacked unless it gives the reader an immediate link to anti-Zionism to show that the topic as a whole is being treated in a balanced way across two articles.

I'll accept the third paragraph, since I completely acknowledge it's just my personal preference for articles not to refer to themselves. I wish I'd been able to express your last point as clearly as you just did, since that's basically why I've been so hung up on seeing some mention of the opposing views/controversy (I tend to think there are a lot of people who would be expecting some mention of anti-Zionism, and who would likely consider the article biased otherwise). I'll leave it to Jayjg (and any other concerned parties) to trim your proposed second paragraph. --Wclark 08:08, 2004 Jul 22 (UTC)

I think it is fine. I added a comma. --Zero 13:04, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Well, I don't think the second paragraph is at all necessary, but if Zero and Adam like it, I won't object. Jayjg 16:33, 22 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I agree that it is not "necessary" for the integrity of this article, which is why I resisted the idea previously, but I have been persuaded that it is "necessary" if the article is ever to achieve stability. And if it is necessary I would rather do it myself than allow various Zionophobes to do it for me.

at most only 20-25 percent of Jews worldwide

"at most only 20-25 percent of Jews worldwide"; where do these numbers come from? Jayjg 16:30, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Good question. I've qualified it somewhat, until somebody can track down a more concrete source for the figure. --Wclark 16:48, 2004 Jul 23 (UTC)

Ideological vs political movement

Definition of ideology:

The body of ideas reflecting the social needs and aspirations of an individual, group, class, or culture.

Definition of political:

Of, relating to, or dealing with the structure or affairs of government, politics, or the state.

To me, it appears that a more precise description of Zionism is as an ideological movement than a political movement; "political" is too narrow.

Style 10:57, 2004 Aug 2 (UTC)

I agree, Zionism is about ideology as well. --Bk0 22:02, 2 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Where did that definition of ideology come from? Crude Marxism for Beginners? Adam 08:55, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language. But don't bother to state your case or argue the point, just revert... -- style 14:36, 2004 Aug 19 (UTC)

Adam, why do you think "political" is more accurate than "ideological"? Jayjg 15:44, 19 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Wouldn't "nationalist" be more precise and accurate than either? —No-One Jones 18:40, 3 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This article is totally disputed

From errors of comission (such as calling Israel's ethnical cleansing a "civil war") to errors of omission (such as omitting the pogroms of non-Jews and occupation of Palestine), this is largely a piece of propaganda minimizing negative acts and consequences of Zionism. HistoryBuffEr 00:01, 2004 Oct 14 (UTC)

I agree. Simply segregating cricism of Zionism in the anti-zionism article and using that as a rationale to let this article be blatent pro-Israel propaganda is not acceptable and reflects negatively, I think, on Wikipedia. Bk0 04:28, 14 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I've never heard of this called a "civil war" by either side until this article, regardless of whether your opinion calls it "ethnic cleansing" or not. Hundreds of thousands of troops from neighboring Arab countries were involved in the 1947-1949 Arab-Israeli war, which is hardly just "Civil war between the Arabs and Jews in Palestine." AriP 21:52, 05 Nov 2004 (UTC)

True. Here are some examples

1

I quote from the main article as of 26/Oct/2004: "(...) and to encourage Jews to settle there as they see it as their God given perogative."

Not at all. Zionism is not a monolithic body of ideas. What is called "right wing" supports this position. What is called "the peace camp" does not. Both are Zionists. (Yes, you could say that the first group is the majority nowadays.)

2.

The popular world opinion opposed the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine from the outset (...)

POV Central. Actually, the United Nations voted in 1947 for partition.

Zionism doesn't change meaning depending on the speaker

Some extremists apparently wish to define "Zionism" by who is using the word: " 'Zionist' is frequently used by anti-Semitic groups as a euphemism for "Jew." This was also a common practice in the Soviet Union and its satellites, notably Poland, before their collapse in 1991. See Zionist Occupied Government for an example of the current use of the term Zionist in this way. " So what does this mean? If a Zionist uses the word, it is legitimate. If a critic of Zionism uses it, it is a euphemism and an anti-Semitic attack? This is ridiculous. Where do Tikkun's or Noam Chomsky's critiques of Zionism fall in this scheme, legitimate or euphemistic? Who decides? This POV application needs to be deleted.--Alberuni 04:40, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It correct. There are people who equate Zionists with all Jews.--Josiah 06:04, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

People use the word in different ways, as sometimes happens with English words. One of the ways anti-Semites use it is as a euphemism for Jew. This causes some confusion, as the article relates. Jayjg 06:58, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

You didn't answer the question, as usual.Where do Tikkun's or Noam Chomsky's critiques of Zionism fall in this scheme, legitimate or euphemistic? Who decides? This POV application needs to be deleted. This is another POV attempt to discredit legitimate criticism of Zionism as illegitimate anti-Semitism. It is a POV description that should be NPOVed in the article.--Alberuni 19:45, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What is the difference where they fall? The question is not relevant. The fact that some people use the term that way doesn't mean that others do not. The article is also very clear that this is a minority usage by anti-Semites, and not the majority usage. Jayjg 21:47, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

It's completely subjective and POV. Not encyclopedia material.--Alberuni 03:05, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Now come on. It is of course true that pro-Zionist groups often falsely accuse anti-Zionist groups of being anti-Semitic (a point, come to think of it, that might be worth covering in the article); it is equally true, though, that when some white supremacist talks about the "Zionist Occupied Government", he doesn't mean "Zionist" though he says "Zionist". - Mustafaa 03:19, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Exactly. Jayjg 03:20, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I disagree. First of all, we can't assume we know who is a white supremacist. Second, we can't claim to know what a white supremacist is thinking when he talks about ZOG. He may well be talking about Jews and Zionists interchangeably or he may have legitimate criticisms about Zionist influence in the US government. Third, it is a logical fallacy to judge the merits of an issue based on the speaker rather than the issue. Fourth, this is an encyclopedia. What are we going to say? "Zionism is the political ideology that Jews are a distinct race that deserves a homeland in Palestine unless the word is used by people who are Arab or white supremacists or Russian or Iranian in which case it is an anti-Semitic euphemism for 'Jew'". This gives the Zionists a tool to label anyone who criticizes them, "an anti-Semite". And it is a tool they frequently use to bludgeon legitimate critics. --Alberuni 03:35, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The motivations of people who use "Jew" and "Zionist" interchangeably are not what is central here; the fact that they do so is enough to point out the issue. Jayjg 16:06, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How about discussing the Zionists who use Zionism and Judaism interchangeably? As in those who claim that anti-Zionism is anti-Semitism? --Alberuni 16:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Interesting and provocative topics. Jayjg 17:50, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Featured article status

I have requested that this article's featured status be removed because of it being the centre of frequent edit wars and having its factual accuracy and neutral point of view disputed. Vacuum | tcw 02:53, Nov 10, 2004 (UTC)

Land Purchase

How come the article fails to mention the purchase of land from arabs mainly with Rothschild's help? Am I missing something? --Anton Adelson, Western Australia 14:06, 13 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Madagascar

Is it true that Madagascar was briefly considered as a Jewish homeland? And how could anyone come up with such a dumb idea? Mjklin 21:51, 2004 Nov 13 (UTC)

• Before Hitler decided on his 'Final solution', he considered other ways of dealing with the 'Jewish problem' by exiling them to some remote land. First he considered Siberia, but fearing the harsh climate would turn the Jews into 'Supermen', he later considered mild Madagascar.--Pharos 11:04, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Truth is stranger than fiction...