Talk: Pope

See http://mb-soft.com/believe/txn/eastcath.htm for a list of Eastern rites within the Catholic church. Other churches like the Old Catholic Church split from the Catholic after Vatican I and don't aknowledge the pope. -rmhermen

The eastern rites are not part of the Roman Catholic church -they are part of the Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church should call itself (and sometimes does) the Roman ritre of the Catholic church. See Orientalium Ecclesiarum, 1964. -rmhermen

Are you sure about that? -- as far as I am aware the Eastern rites are part of the Roman Catholic Church; since they accept the Bishop of Rome as head of the church. The Roman Catholic Church has several rites, the Western ones (Roman or Latin, Ambrosian and Mozarabic) and the Eastern. -- Simon J Kissane

They're all part of the Catholic Church. Roman is, specifically, the Latin Rite, but 'Rite' is a tricky term. In the case of the Ambrosian and Mozarabic Rites it actually means only "approved variation in ritual scheme for certain dioceses only" - you can't have an authorized mass in the Ambrosian Rite anywhere outside the region of Milan. The Eastern Rites, on the other hand, not only have different liturgies, but have separate organizational structures, i.e., churches, often with separate patriarchs (at least the Melkites and the Maronites have 'em - the Ukrainians want one), but they are in "union" with the Pope as supreme Patriarch. Technically "Roman" refers only to the Latin rite, but it gets applied to everyone in union with the Pope by extension. Latin rite Catholics mainly don't notice, and Eastern rite Catholics fume about it. Can you tell I know a bunch of Eastern Rite folks? --MichaelTinkler

Pope/Antipope

Removed: Whether someone was a Pope or Antipope is mostly a matter of a historian's personal opinion. No, it is not a 'personal' opinion of a (one) historian. It is the opinion of the Roman Catholic Church about itself (which certainly involved consulting historians), discussed at great length in many individual cases by individual historians. In many cases there is no detailed discussion by historians because the person was very obviously an antipope. There are remarkably few difficult cases. This is not true, and should have been on the 'antipope' entry anyway; I'm going to run check and see if I need to delete it from there, too. --MichaelTinkler

Just as a detail, there is also a sort of slang used by Vaticanists, and in this allusive speaking the chief of Jesuits (Compagnia di Gesu'), whose charge is so important and influent that he can put an effective veto on Pope's decisions, is called "Papa nero" (black pope) or, sometimes, "antipapa".
But who is primarily called an antipope is an Avignone's schism Pope.

In case this could help, the Church we are talking about describes itself as "Santa Romana Chiesa" (Holy Roman Church), so this should be an official point.

Another official self-definition is "Chiesa Cattolica e Apostolica di Roma".

Disambiguating reference

I've moved the disambiguating reference to Alexander Pope and others with the Pope surname to the head of the article. Surely a person who is looking for these others will want to know immediately that he is in the wrong place, and is unlikely to want to scroll through the long list of popes to find it at the end. Eclecticology

Surname Pope

For notable persons with the surname Pope see

Albert Augustus Pope (1843-?) - American manufacturer
Alexander Pope (1688-1744) - English poet
Franklin Leonard Pope (1840-1895) - American electrician
John Pope (1822-1892) - American soldier
Sir Thomas Pope (1507-1559) - English administrator

It has been hashed out in numerous places that listing people who happen to have a certain last name is not at all what disambiguation is for. --maveric149

Papal eras

I removed this odd list of periods from the bottom of the page because it is idiosyncratic and very Italocentric. The list essentially conveys to the reader who was in 'secular' control of central Italy during the period and does NOT adequately convey what external political powers had influence on the papacy in a particular period. Please note that the Lombards are mentioned (though the Lombard kings and dukes were a threat there is little evidence of direct influence on policy or papal elections) but the Carolingians are not (for whom there is lots of evidence). Avignon might be useful. What about the Hapsbugs? I hope this came out of an Italian source or a book translated from Italian. MichaelTinkler The reigns of the Popes can be roughly divided into eras:

Imperial era 42-395,
Western Imperial Era 395-476,
Herulian era 476-491,
Ostrogothic era 491-553,
Byzantine Era 553-751,
Lombard Era 751-756,
1st Era of the Papal States 756-1309 (vacant 1268-71),
Avignon Era (the "Babylonian Captivity") 1309-1377,
2nd Era of the Papal States 1377-1798,
Napoleonic interruptions 1798-1814,
3rd Era of the Papal States 1814-1870,
Savoyard Era 1870-1929,
Vatican Era 1929-.

ex cathedra & Camerlengo

Wasn't it John XXIII and not Paul VI (as stated) who declared that he would never speak ex cathedra? Someone else 22:17 Sep 11, 2002 (UTC)

Yup. It was John XXIII. I've changed it. Also removed the following sentence:

The Camerlengo officially pronounces the pope dead by tapping his head three times with a special hammer and calling his name; if there is no response the death is announced.

Though always quoted, it never happens, or hasn't anyway for decades and decades. It is one of these ancient ceremonies long abolished which every journalist, when it comes to the time of the death of a pope, always quotes as fact except . . . its fiction. It may have happened sometime in the past, but no-one in the Vatican has any memory of it, any record of it, or any idea when it died out. They don't even know where the little 'silver hammer' is. The other part of this ceremony involved the relevant cardinal, as he tapped His Holiness on the forehead, saying, {name of pope} 'Art thou dead'? Apparently, every camerlingo (is that the correct spelling, BTW?) on appointment asks for this mythical silver hammer, and is disappointed to be told, 'Sorry, Cam. No such ceremony'. JTD 05:35 Feb 13, 2003 (UTC)

I just returned an hour or so ago from the "St. Peter and the Vatican: The Legacy of the Popes" exhibit at the Cincinnati Museum Center, and one of the items on display was a small golden hammer, labeled as the Cardinal Chamberlain's hammer; the description specifically described the hammer's use to determine the Pope's death and to smash the Fisherman's Ring. As this exhibit is put together by the Vatican, I have therefore restored reference to the hammer ceremony to the text, with the caveat that it does not appear to have been practised any time recently (I believe the exhibit dates its last use to 1903 or so). Publius 22:03, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Actually, the hammer was used in at least both with Paul VI and John Paul I. This was done after medical professionals had already determined that the pope had passed away. The hammer is usually kept by the Chamberlin. Also, a pair of shears is used to cut the ring.
JesseG 16:02, Oct 15, 2004 (UTC)

That surprises me. Could you give me a source? Gugganij 14:44, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What about that special chair the story says candidates have to sit in, so the Cardinals can say "...habet et bene..."? PML.

The one to prove they have testicles and so aren't a woman in disguise? Myth too, I'm afraid. Though some old chair like that was found in the Lateran Palace once. But if it was done, it was back in the days when Martin Luther was in short pants!!! JTD

Miscellaneous

The election process is described in this article and in the conclave article, should one be folded into the other? ²¹²

Does anybody know if there was a pope who was not a cardinal when he was elected

does the pope have to be a cardinal when he is elected?

Why does the See Also link to Papacy wrap back to this article? Actually I was hoping for an article titled Papacy for the amusing reason that I'm trying to find a page of slurs, that I know I've seen once on wikipedia and can't find, and thought that Papacy might reference it. Ha, I can just look up some other, more obvious slur word (that has just occurred to me). Tried "Racism", tried "wop", gave up. Either I was drunk or imagining it, or I'm just not clever enough to find it.

I removed His Holiness the Supreme Pontiff John Paul II in the section describing who is the current pope, since afaics is not usual for an encylopedia to refer to the holder of an office with its style. Gugganij 08:30, 24 May 2004 (UTC)

Ceremonial insignia

I rewrote the article to provide a bit more logical structure and consistency of style; I also added a few details about ceremonial insignia and such associated with the Papacy, incorporated the information from Myths and legends surrounding the Papacy (which I intend to change to a redirect) and a brief summary of other Christian denominations' objections to the Pontificate. A History of the Papacy article would be an excellent addition to Wikipedia, and I plan to revise the Holy See and Roman Curia articles shortly, as well.

Incidentally, if anyone has any information about the mobile chair that the Popes used to use (I cannot for the life of me remember what it was called) and the Popemobile which has replaced it, it would be appropriate to include that information in the insignia section, as that is something popularly associated with the Popes, like the umbracullum. Publius 18:13, 1 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I have added the sedia gestatoria and mentioned that it has been replaced by the Popemobile, but I do not know enough about the Popemobile to give any details about it. Publius 22:03, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Extent of the article

I strongly disagree with any idea of including information from Myths and legends surrounding the Papacy in this article and making the page a redirect. Many of the myths are cloud cuckooland garbage. They are justified for inclusion in an article explaining them in the context of conspiracy theories but they no more belong in the main article than allegations of jews drinking christian babies' blood deserve serious detailed inclusion in articles on Judiasm, or Lyndon Johnson's supposed role in having JFK killed deserves to feature in any detailed way in an article on LBJ. Wild ludicrous nonsense like these stories, if covered at all, should be put in the cultural context of the fact they are extremist opinions held by a small group, not made an important part of a credible main article. FearÉIREANN 22:38, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I agree with Jtdirl. Green Mountain 23:05, 8 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Absolutely! Sometimes Wikipedia's reach for NPOV embraces some preposterous fringe fancies. Wetman 00:21, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I concede the point, gentlemen (or ladies, as appropriate). Aside from the matter already settled, have you any other suggestions on how to improve this article? Publius 00:05, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of to expand the article would be something about the Pope's political role (especially in medieval times). Perhaps that only belongs in the article about the church, though. I was specifically thinking about things such as the crowning of monarchs (sometimes done by the Pope, I believe) and certain papal bulls (such as about the colonization of America, for example - see Treaty of Tordesillas). - Vardion 09:25, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Well, the Pope traditionally crowned the Holy Roman Emperor, starting with Charlemagne in 800 and ending with Charles V in the XVI Century. Other than that, I am not familiar with Papal coronations of other monarchs (excepting Napoleon Bonaparte, of course). I'm not sure where precisely that information would belong in the article as it is, or whether it belongs in a new (albeit short) section. What do you suggest? Publius 22:18, 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)

I think a new section would probably be the best way to incorporate it. Perhaps after the current Status and Authority section. But since I don't know that much about it, I'm not the best person to judge - whatever works best, I guess. Thanks. -- Vardion 00:00, 11 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Removed text in ==Objections to the Papacy==

Removed, from ==Objections to the Papacy==:

Freethinkers can argue that the idea of an omnibenevolent God giving power to corrupt men like for example, Pope Alexander VI, Callixtus III , Judas Iscariot and some of the corrupt kings of Israel is illogical and contrary to the Scientific method.

Liberal Christians often argue that a loving God would not allow anyone to go to Hell. They would therefore reject concepts like, Anathema, excommunication and shunning.

The first argument -- that an omnibenevolent God would not give power to the corrupt -- had already been addressed, without this vague and irrelevant allusion to the scientific method. This is a question of theology (theodicy, to be precise), not of inquiry into concrete natural phenomena.

The second argument is about anathematization, shunning, and excommunication, none of which are powers unique to the papacy. This argument, if it does represent the views of some liberal Christians (references are nice, of course), could be placed in excommunication; it might say something like "Liberal Christian group X does not believe in damnation, therefore it does not believe that excommunication and anathematization are necessary corrective measures; also [any other arguments]."

There have been, and still are, valid reasons to criticize popes and the papacy, but these don't cut it. --67.69.188.80 15:10, 22 Mar 2004 (UTC)

More removed text (bolded):

. . .the First Vatican Council anathematised all who dispute the Pope's primacy of honour and of jurisdiction (it is lawful to discuss the precise nature of that primacy, provided that such discussion does not violate the terms of the Council's Dogmatic Constitution) or challenge the authority of those in charge.

. . . for obvious reasons: it's a vague, opinionated restatement of already-explained facts. --67.71.76.77 07:32, 24 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I removed section Jack Chick has in his Chick Tracts argued that being a Roman Catholic leads to damnation rather than salvation. for the following reason: The article is dealing with the Pope and - in the relevant subsection - of objections to the papal primacy claimed by the Roman Catholic Church, therefore if Roman Catholics go to hell or not is simply not the question to be answered here. 143.50.212.40 17:51, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Quasi-absolute monarch

"Quasi-absolute monarch" is a concept that escapes me, somehow... Wetman 05:58, 3 May 2004 (UTC)

Lateran palace & Castel Gandolfo part of the Vatican?

I removed following sentence: the Lateran Palace and Castel Gandolfo are integral parts of Vatican City. Reason: The Lateran treaties explicitly state that they remain part of the Italian territory; but, as possessions of the Holy See (a subject of international law to be distinguished from the Vatican City), they enjoy the privileges of extraterritoriality (similar to the status of foreign embassies).

Laudabiliter et Fructuose

The papal bull authorizing the Donation of Ireland is known as "Laudabiliter" not "Laudabiliter et Fructuose"; it is the form used by the Encyclopædia Britannica, the Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01156c.htm), and the Oxford History of England (volume III); and the form to be found most commonly on google.

What is it's veracity. Is it mentioned in non English texts..... is there an extant copy.

Ian Paisley?

OK, I'm not a Christian, but I wonder if Ian Paisley is worth the reference placed so centrally in this text - as an example of one who questions the Pope's authority. I can think of many, many other people who have done just that, who arguably have had more historical influence (Martin Luther comes to mind). Either additional examples should be added (though that may negatively affect the articles current high degree of readability), or the sentence should be removed. So, I ask for comment on this sentence:

Ian Paisley is one of those who strongly rejects the idea of the authority of the Pope.

If no one objects, I'll remove it 24 hours from now. I look forward to the debate! --NightMonkey 01:01, Aug 22, 2004 (UTC)

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