Talk: New Haven, Connecticut
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The dining places mentioned are well-known to anyone who's spent time in New Haven. There's no reason to remove them. -- Nunh-huh 03:51, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Of the thousands of articles Wikipedia has, according to a Google search of the archives, only two others have a similar list of restaurants (Berkeley, California and Great Barrington, Massachusetts), so there's no real precedent, and I tend to agree with RickK that there are too many to add to a general page like this. A link to List of restaraunts in New Haven seems like it would be a good compromise. Niteowlneils 04:03, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
The Rambot articles are meant to be added to, they are not meant to stay as compilations of statistics. When there get to be too many restaurants, they can be split off. You can hasten that process by adding some. -- Nunh-huh 04:08, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Why did this become disambiguated? All US cities have a standard format of city, state. RickK | Talk 05:29, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
RickK writes: "User:Nunh-huh insists on including three pizza places and a restaurant on the New Haven page. I've been trying to delete them but he won't let me. When I suggested that if he's going to list them he should add several others, he said that I needed to add them if I thought they should be included. Isn't it POV to list only a very few of the hundreds of stores in a city's list? Isn't this free advertising?"
- Do you propose that no commercial establishment be mentioned in Wikipedia unless on an exhaustive list? I suspect you oppose the addition of these because you are under the misapprehension that "pizza places" have no particular significance to New Haven. see here. It's quite frustrating to have valid additions to this article repeatedly removed. -- Nunh-huh 06:18, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- As for selections being POV, and for commercial institutions being verboten, see List of restaurant chains, List of department stores, etc. There are even entire articles written about individual stores, I don't know where you get the idea that Wikipedia bans mention of commercial enterprises. If an institution is important in or unique to a city it should be mentioned in its city's article. -- Nunh-huh 07:07, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I'm unreverting yet again. These are important local institutions, and readily verifiable. Mr. Wales notes [1] that it is "valid to mention some restaurants or establishments of any type in an article, if they are actually of some cultural importance in that city", suggests verifiability as a measure of that cultural importance, and himself provides a URL relating to Louis' Lunch.
As I've already provided links for the pizza joints, the reversions should stop. I can't see why they started in the first place. -- Nunh-huh 16:22, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Please work out your differences on the discussion page, using a poll if necessary. In the meantime, I have protected the page.—Eloquence 16:26, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)
- I believe we just have worked out our differences on the discussion page, albeit with a detour to the mailing list. -- Nunh-huh 16:31, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I did my latest reversion before I saw Jimbo's post on the mailing list. I will no longer revert this page. — Timwi 16:33, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
FWIW: claims of Louis' Lunch inventing the hamburger seem highly unlikely. Note that Hamburger article makes no such claims. Dpbsmith 20:21, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
American Heritage Dictionary says: "Because the world has eaten countless hamburgers, the origins of the name may be of interest to many. By the middle of the 19th century people in the port city of Hamburg, Germany, enjoyed a form of pounded beef called Hamburg steak. The large numbers of Germans who migrated to North America during this time probably brought the dish and its name along with them. The entrée may have appeared on an American menu as early as 1836, although the first recorded use of Hamburg steak is not found until 1884. The variant form hamburger steak, using the German adjective Hamburger meaning “from Hamburg,” first appears in a Walla Walla, Washington, newspaper in 1889. By 1902 we find the first description of a Hamburg steak close to our conception of the hamburger, namely a recipe calling for ground beef mixed with onion and pepper. By then the hamburger was on its way, to be followed—much later—by the shortened form burger, used in forming cheeseburger and the names of other variations on the basic burger, as well as on its own." It wasn't invented at Louis' Lunch. Dpbsmith 20:28, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- We don't certify that it was, only that it's claimed. I rather suspect hamburgers were invented more than once. Hamburg steaks and hamburger steaks were eaten with knives and forks: it's a stretch to call them "hamburgers", until they get stuck between bread, which, if you'll follow the link to Louis' above, is what they say Louis did in 1900. (which you will note, following our external link from hamburger considerably precedes the popularity of the "hamburger sandwich" during World War II.) - Nunh-huh 20:39, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
==
Who would have thought that adding notable parts of a city's culture to its article would become so contentious? This continued removal is absurd. If you don't know their importance in the city, you should become acquainted with it before enforcing your intuitive prejudices. No resident of the city would question their inclusion. - Nunh-huh 21:07, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The City of New Haven includes mention of Louis' Lunch & Pepe's Pizza on its welcome page [2] -- Nunh-huh 21:43, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- The Louis' Lunch Library of Congress page
- Google's 528 hits
I await comment before re-adding the material. -- Nunh-huh 21:59, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I accept the invention of the hamburger as valid local lore worthy of mention. I've NPOV'ed it and moved it to the history section, avoiding issues of listing other eateries. Googling reveals other claimants. Common elements seems to be that the hamburger steak itself was introduced by German immigrants circa 1880's, that it was generally served as a sandwich by the time it was widely popularized at the St. Louis Worlds' Fair in 1904, and that who first put it on the bun is difficult to determine. Others include Charles "Hamburger Charlie" Nagreen of Seymour, Wis., said to have invented it in 1885 and served it at the at the Outgamie County Fair; Fletcher Davis of Texas and Frank Menches of Ohio who served in in the late 1880s (questionable) and brought it to the 1904 St. Louis Worlds' Fair (less questionable); and various restaurants in New York in the mid 1890s at the request of sailors who had eaten Otto Kuasw's "Deutsches Beefsteak" sandwiches in Hamburg. Dpbsmith 23:14, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC) P. S. Won't be editing this again soon.
- All that information would be useful in the hamburger article. - Nunh-huh 23:26, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- And I may get around to putting it there. Dpbsmith 23:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Normally I would object to the inclusion of what might be viewed as "trivial" data about the restaurants in a city in an article. However, I've visited New Haven on several occasions (I've even eaten at Louis' Lunch). Every time, I've heard the story about the invention of the hamburger and the prohibition of ketchup. Additionally, literature from Yale University includes information about the more historical restaurants in New Haven, so I think the restaurant industry in New Haven deserves a place in the article.
- Acegikmo1 23:23, Mar 18, 2004 (UTC)
- So, Acegikmo1 when you ate at Louis' Lunch, how were the hamburgers? Dpbsmith 23:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- I clearly agree <g>, but you'd think I were trying to introduce subversive information to pervert the minds of our youth from the hoops I'm being put through to do so! -- Nunh-huh 23:26, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- It's a big free Wiki and I'm going to keep my fingers out of this article for a while. Dpbsmith 23:42, 18 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hiya, new to Wiki-ing here, but figured New Haven needed a little oomphing up and more detail all around. I have no idea why people are against including the VERY important local eateries such as Louie's Lunch and Pepe's et al. New Haven is a highly culinary city and its identity is very much tied to the local restaurants. Hope my large revision isn't too much for anybody. -
Soldaatvanoranje 0102 UTC
- It's a very nice addition! Do you think that there should be some discussion about the New Haven Green and the initial "9-square" layout of the city? or perhaps there is enough material for a New Haven Green article? After all, how many cities have three rival churches in their center! -- Nunh-huh 01:14, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Thanks, Nunh-huh! I am all very new to this so Im glad to get feedback. I am sure there's room somewhere in the new haven article for a complete discussion of the city's layout and maybe even it's neighborhoods. And definitely room for a New Haven Green article. :D Soldaatvanoranje 03:07 UTC, Mar 19, 2004 (Oh and you might want to check out what I've added to the Orange, Milford, and Woodbridge wiki entries as well)
RickK writes: "But what do we do in the future if an editor insists on adding two or three stores or restaurants and won't let the ads be removed?"
- What I might do is take two steps back and consider [1] that my characterization of a mention of a store or restaurant as an "ad" might not be entirely accurate, and [2] that the editor just might conceivably have a better idea of what is important to mention than I do. If after consideration I still had doubts, I might [3] want to do some research rather than immediately implementing my "feelings" about the issue. I would also consider [4] discussing the issue on the article's talk page rather than in edit summaries. -- Nunh-huh 02:43, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Ok, I've re-added the restaurant names as part of a section outlining the cuisine and culinary heritage of New Haven; is this acceptable? Pizza, for one, has served as a major cultural touchstone for the city and its Italian-American community and I think it is important enough to warrant the mention of the two already well-known and landmark-status eateries listed in the article. Please also review the entire New Haven article, as well as my new entries on Greater New Haven, the local Quinnipiack tribe, and local landmarks such as the New Haven Coliseum and the New Haven Green. Hopefully I've made each article more significant than stub status. Thanks! --- Sol. v. Oranje 17:50, 19 Mar 2004 (UTC)
RickK writes: My concern was not with some place that claims to have invented the hamburger: it was just that the original poster was adding off-the-cuff pizza places that, at least as far as was indicated in the article, had no particular significance except possibly to the poster. To me, this is POV: "These are the places you should eat at, not any others."
- The "original poster" added them here
- You reverted without explanation here
- A "second poster" (me) re-added the information, with less effusive tone, here
- You then went on a campaign of reversion, calling them "advertisements"
- all without a word on the talk page.
- and apparently with no thought even at present that you might have been in error or overly hasty, despite the fact that two people had thought them important enough to add.
No one who knows anything about New Haven has questioned the inclusion of these three places. Instead, they make assumptions about what should be of note, rather than find out what is of note. That is POV. "Off-the-cuff" and "these are the places you should eat" are your misinterpretations, not factual assessments. -- Nunh-huh 01:24, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry, Nunh-huh, but that last paragraph doesn't make any sense. Firstly, Wikipedia editors cannot be required to know anything about New Haven. Secondly, they do not need to know anything about New Haven to find that an article is biased. Thirdly, what people that know anything about New Haven think should be of note is entirely irrelevant. Forthly, your use of "misinterpretation" is POV. If you scratch the "mis", it'll be less POV, but then you'll see that it is no more and no less valid than your own interpretation, which you seem to think is "truth" or somesuch. — Timwi 03:38, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
- [1] Wikipedia editors who edit the New Haven article really should know something about New Haven. [2] There was not "finding" of bias in the article. [3] Clearly people who know New Haven are more competent to judge what is "important to mention" than people who don't. [4] To equate the readdition of information about restaurants as an exhortation to eat there is a misinterpretation -- an overinterpretation, if you prefer. [5] Yes, I do think I am right; yes, I do think Wikipedia was quite unwelcoming to the original editor, who was making a useful addition, not indulging in vandalism; and yes, I do think that a coterie of sysops were overly aggressive in subsequent edit warring. Yes, that is a POV, one which I am free to express on a talk page. -- Nunh-huh 04:20, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Trudeau Doonesbury cartoons on walls of Sally's Apizza?
I said I would keep my fingers out of this article for a while, so I won't add this myself, but is it true that Sally's Apizza was a favorite hangout of cartoonist Garry Trudeau when he was at Yale and that the walls are decorated with a liberal collection of autographed Doonesbury cartoons? Because, if so, some might that worthy of note. Dpbsmith 20:09, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
"
Some might think Frank Sinatra's 2-hour long pilgrimages from NYC more noteworthy. From this site:Sally's Apizza 237 Wooster St. New Haven, CT 06511 (203) 624-5271 New Haven’s Wooster Street is to pizza what Newcastle is to coal and Maine is to lobster. The two great rivals are Frank Pepe’s and Sally’s Apizza. At Sally’s, memorabilia of famous patrons line the walls of the tiny pizzeria. A picture of Frank Sinatra is on one wall, while a Doonesbury cartoon of Zonker Harris is on another. Sally’s is known for its New York-style pizza and even native New Yorkers have been known to declare this the best, period. The coal fueled brick oven produces a delectable pie where the mozzarella just seems melded into the tomato sauce and crust. It is truly something that must be experienced. When the local college students are hungry, lines may last for two hours for a slice of Sally’s incredible thin crust brick oven pizza.
But I won't be adding it. -- Nunh-huh 20:29, 20 Mar 2004 (UTC)
