Talk: Mercia

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I whacked the "Mercland" because there is zero evidence for it, and I just finished The Earliest English Kings which would have mentioned it if the name was real. So let's see the authority here. Stan 22:37, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

That's an interesting explanation, but still doesn't answer my question about authorities. My unabridged OED has a third of a column about "Mercia" and "Mercian", but "Mercland" is nowhere to be seen. If the term is not of your own invention, there must be somebody else who uses it also. Google only shows "Mercland" as a surname and for auto dealerships, but it's certainly possible that there are print authorities without web pages. We only need one. Stan 23:15, 3 Mar 2004 (UTC)

It's possible that because Mercia was "out of the loop" on written materials later than other parts of England, that "Mercland" had gone out of use before anything was written down in the vernacular. The OED sez "Mercia" is a latinization of Ole English "Mierce", so perhaps "land" was simply never added to the name. I don't have a textbook or dictionary of Old English at home, but will visit university library in a couple weeks, can look up then. Stan 00:53, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

But if it's not a real name, then it shouldn't be there. Otherwise you leave the door open to nutcases who say their study of Gnostic writings make it clear that it was really called "Oogabooga", and then the edit warring never stops. We have to have an authoritative source that we can cite by name. (Yes, not everything in WP has that level of support, but that's a bug, not a feature.) Stan 04:34, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No decrees needed! - just a use in print. That's how the OED works after all; they have a lot of really weird words, but each definition includes one or more quotes showing that it was really used by people; for modern words the quote may very well be something as minor as a campus newspaper, but it's still something verifiable. "Mierce" is cool with me, although I'd still like to investigate the "Mercland" possibility. Stan 07:01, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Okay, at the risk of stirring up the pot, I started to look thru my small collection of A-S references, & did find the forms "Myrcnaland", "Miercnalond" & "Mercnaland" attested in the A & D versions of the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle (Plummer's edition). P.H. Sawyer's Anglo-Saxon Charters only provides the original forms when they cannot be identified with the modern name, & the charters in my copies of Sweet's Anglo-Sazon Reader(15th ed.) & his A Second Anglo-Saxon Reader (2nd ed.) do not provide any meaningful help.

My guess is that the "-na-" syllable suggests a dative form of "Mercia", so it is possible that "Mercland" was used. It is in any case an uncommon variant.

However, I have to side with Stan that when one makes a contribution to Wikipedia, she/he should be prepared to provide some kind of support for the contribution. In this case, the English Place-Name Society has fairly well documented the various variants of every place name in England, even at times down to street & individual field names; their works are available in every public library in England (so I found when I checked in a couple of cities). Even my local public library here in Oregon even has a couple volumes that they produced. Taking a moment to consult this authoritative work should always replace guesswork.

Adding material without documentation -- even a newspaper article or pamphlet -- only leads to trouble. I've been engaged in a flame-war with someone who insists that his contributions "are true", but refuses to provide this desired documentation, despite my pleas; as a result some of the articles he has written has appeared on VfD -- & not because I nominated them. And the process of listing articles at VfD to keep out dubious material is a waste of everyone's time when simply supplying sources at the beginning could have avoided the ensuing debates. -- llywrch 18:04, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Interesting speculation. Sadly, Wikipedia does not treat speculation as fact... Morwen 18:14, Mar 4, 2004 (UTC)

Morwen, do you have access to any of the EPNS references I mentioned above? I figure that would have the authoritative answer to this question, & settle this matter.

And the issue of spelling Mercia can be overprecise: I've seen diplomatic texts that spell Mercia "Myrce", "Mierce" & "Mearce". Obviously the original writer was trying to capture the quality of the first vowel, which probably varied depending on how he heard it spoken, & his habits of spelling. Spelling was more of an art than a science before the introduction of the printing press.

BTW, the Mercian charters printed in A Second Anglo-Saxon Reader (2nd ed.) call kings Offa & Ethelbald rex merciorum -- "king of the Mercias". So if we want to add contemporary variants on Mercia to this article, we should add all of them; it will be quite a chore to collect them, unless someone can find a paper that has done so. -- llywrch 23:11, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Note to the reader: the reason for the bizarre appearance of the above dialogue is that Kenneth Alan afterwards deleted all of his comments. He believes that their existence in the history of changes for this page is a sufficient record. -- llywrch 17:47, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)