Talk: Martin Luther

...Even before the Diet, a demand is not made that Luther recant. The question was: do you stand by what you taught in these books or do you reject them..... CTSWyneken 14:58 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

that is, he was asked to recant, and his speech, as he himself wrote it down for posterity, is a refusal to recant, not a defense. -- Someone else 20:59 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Someone Else -- IIRC, he wrote down the speech later. Recant implies that the meeting was in some way a formal heresy trial -- it wasn't, at least not in the sense of those of reformers like Hus. But it's an imperial Diet -- not an ecclesiastical one. The fact that Luther wrote down his speech as a refusal to recant doesn't mean that he was asked to do so -- Luther was very belligerent, after all, and the record as mentioned above is perhaps less biased. Boots

He did indeed record his speech later, but there's no conflicting account. He was asked two questions: are these your books, and do you recant them. There was no opportunity given for "defense" of the books, though I'm sure he, and the princes who supported him, would have liked one. Worms was not a trial, as Luther was already excommunicated: it was a chance for him to recant and avoid the penalty, which was to be enforced by the Emperor. I really don't understand why one would use the word "defense": it's not justified by any account of the events at the Diet. -- Someone else 00:09 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

It is justified by the accounts of the principle reports by Justus Jonas, Luther's friend and Nuncio Aleander, the pope's emissary. It is summarized in the currently most respected of Luther biographies, Martin Brecht's three volume work.

I'm afraid you have the questions wrong. They were, according to the papal nuncio, Aleander, "First, do you acknowledge that these books here (a bundle of his books and writings in Latin and German was shown him) now named publically to you one by one, which are published with your name as author, are yours? Do you recognize them or not? Next. do you wish to retract and recall them and their contents or to cling to them henceforth and to insist on them?" [Luther's Works, vol. 32, p. 124] In fact, quite a bit of time was given for him to defend the works.

It was likely that Charles V wanted the Diet to condemn Luther and was using it as a way to please the princes that insisted that Luther had been condemned without being heard out and answered. The summons was cast in that form. Luther had every right to expect to be heard. The nuncio was angered that Luther was given this opportunity. In the end, the Reichtag did not render its opinion, pleading for time. Charles ended up issuing the edict on his own authority and did not insist on its implementation by all princes. In short, Luther was intended to identify his work, and to state which he would stand by and which he would retract and why. He had hoped for an all out debate, which was not to be. The nuncio and emperor had hoped for a renunciation or condemnation, which was not to be.

On these facts, I believe that "defend" is quite appropriate, but not a perfect phrase. "testify" works, although it doesn't say about what. CTSWyneken 22:06 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I believe my summary of the questions is accurate, and my only difficulty with the section as it now stands is the hand-waving about whether he said "Here I stand, etc." -- I think it would be better to remove

Because Melanchthon was close to the reformer, he may well be reporting the story as Luther told it. However, we have no way of knowing for sure these words were ever spoken. Of course it is quite plausible that he may have said them to himself, rather than out loud. This might present a natural explanation why such eminently quotable words were not recorded contemporaneusly.

as it's suppositional, conversational, and non-encyclopedic in tone. (And needs to spell "contemporaneously" better). But as I've removed it before and it's been restored, I won't persist. If you feel it improves the article, I won't play with it. -- Someone else 23:25 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Tone of Article

Since the parts you probably would consign conversational, suppositional, non-encyclopaedic etc. in tone and poorly spelled as well, are most likely from my keyboard; let me just say that I have no personal fondness for them at all. Just trying to find a weasel-worded solution, when the alternative seemed to be to recount just the supporting fact that it was actually written down a whole (woohoo!) 50 years after. If there were a way to just say that he did not in fact probably say the words at all, that would accord perfectly with my sense of what can be justified historically. -- Cimon Avaro on a pogo-stick 00:11 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Well, yes, I was suggesting that less "weasel" would be better<g>, however well-intentioned. I had originally thought that, just as you say, simply indicating that the words were first "recorded" 50 years after they were supposedly uttered would be acceptable, but apparently they are hard words for some people to give up... very much like "Nevertheless, it does move".... -- Someone else 01:32 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

On "Here I Stand..."

On the "Here I stand quote..." 400 years of tradition are really hard to fight! Tell folks Bogie never said: "Play it again, Sam!" After just a few decades! The trouble with discussing debates about such things is fairness does not allow for brevity in what should be a general article. I feel the same about the nailed-or-mailed debate, which is more-or-less still going on, with the majority settling around both. Say that briefly! 8-)

I'm inclined to take most of it into the Wiki-equivalent of a content note... another short article. That way the scholarly debate can be discussed for those who love trivia, but keep the narrative clean. CTSWyneken 01:42 12 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Peasants' War

Boots:

re: Peasant's war: nicely done! Some minor tweaking may help (Luther tried to mediate between the Lords and Peasants first, with uncharacteristically mild language, but, in his view, got for his efforts a peasantry that twisted his words, thus his Against the Murdering, Raping Hordes of Peasants Otherwise, very good work.

re: the excommunication, I think this event needs its own section. The intro does help the section on the Diet, as the article now stands. CTSWyneken 22:13 11 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Lightning-strike legend

Hi,
I'm curious about what documented basis there may be for the lightning-strike ("Help, St. Anne..") legend? I see it is described as a legend at http://www.luther.de/en/legenden.html
I've read that a more likely explanation was that Luther became a monk to escape (and offend) his abusive parents, and that the lightning legend was created later. Harris7 20:44, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Answer

Dear Harris7:

According to Brecht, the account comes from Crotus Rubianus, a friend of Luther from the days before his entry into the monastery, in letter 213, 16 October 1519. WA br 1:543, line 105ff. CTSWyneken 12:21, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

...and further on, from Luther himself: WA 8:573, Lines 20ff, WA TR no. 116, WA TR 4 no. 4414, WA TR 4 no. 4704, WA TR 5 no. 5373, WA BR 2:384, Line 80. The text fro TR 4 nol 4704 says, it part: "On the 16th July (1539), St. Alexis Day, Luther observed: "Today is the anniversary of my entrance into the monastery at Erfurt." Then he began to relate how he made the vow. Two weeks earlier while travelling near Stotternheim, not far from Erfurt, he was so frightened by a flash of lightening that he exclaimed in terror: "Help me, St. Anne, I will become a monk!" [Hillerbrand, p. 23] CTSWyneken 14:42, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

"crude" statements?

From the article: "Luther's work contains a number of statements that modern readers would consider rather crude."

Then just below are some nasty racists remarks, attributed to him unless I misread the article, which appear to advocate burning down the houses and driving the Jews into poverty and exile, and advocate that robbers should be allowed to set upon them on the highways.

Are these what is meant by "crude"? If so, "crude" seems a bit euphemistic, for what I might term "racist almost to being genocidal".

The article still needs quite a bit of work, and this section is one of them. Luther lived five centuries ago and his language is quite a bit different than we expect of educated folk today. There are passages which talk about bathroom activities and such which we do not quote here, nor do I think we should. I'm leaning towards streamlining and generalizing most of it, taking tangents, as I believe this is, into side articles, or leaving them out altogether. This is, after all, an encyclopedia, not a full-blown biography.--CTSWyneken 20:27, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

My point was that the article says "rather crude", and then displays appallingly nasty comments, as I said, appearing racist nearly to genocidal characteristic. I'm not sure whether you are arguing that we should consider these nasty comments only "rather crude" because everyone was crude then (not only don't I believe that, but I don't follow the logic; it says modern readers, so you should express modern judgement, not some smoothed over euphemism).

Streamlining sounds like a euphemism for bowdlerizing. Instead of removing information, why not add information to keep the whole in balance? Information should be removed if it's wrong or repeats something said better elsewhere in the entry. We have to deal with the realities of life and history at Wikipedia. There is no length limit on entries. Martin Luther might be even as long as Britney Spears. Longer even. Wetman 20:34, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I think there's a balance somewhere between provide a lot of good information and writing something so long and confusing that no one will read it. In fact, the irony is I just got finished lengthening the section on the Diet of Worms!

On the other hand, I, for one, hate scrolling to read long articles and often don't bother to fish through or print them. I'm sure a lot of folk out there feel the same way. No, I'm also not for "bowelderizing." What I mean by streamlining is keeping something flowing in a straight line. For example, stopping to explain why some folk feel Luther nailed the theses, others that he mailed them and most folk that he did both, distracts from getting a clear understanding of how things happened in 1517. So, I've opened a short article on the 95 theses and put the info there. When I get a chance, I will take the sentences out of the Luther article and link to it. I think other areas can benefit from it. As elsewhere on the web... want more? Just click.--CTSWyneken 20:55, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The "Martin Luther and Judaism" section seems to be exceptionally NPOV and well written to me at present, and I don't see a current need for it to be either added to or taken away from. On the other hand, wiki is not paper, and I would generally like to see a massive amount more content added to every article, and for the number of articles to multiply exponentially as well ;) Sam Spade 07:28, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Government position?

I speak from ignorance, but I thought that Luther held some sort of governing position. Actually, I thought I'd read that he was some sort of religious despot, or dictatorial church tyrant--but I'm not sure if that is anti-Lutheran sentiment that I've seen disguised as history. In fact, this is why I read the article, but I saw no mention of any such.

Luther never held a position in government, nor would his theology permit such. He was the first to advocate the notion of separation of church and state, although his concept was very different from ours. He felt a government had a duty to God to promote Christianity, fight its enemies and punish blasphemy. His role -- and that of anyone in the church -- was to advise the government as to God's will. Luther's style was quite polemic, like the most partisan of our politicians on steriods. When read out of context and century, he can sound very extreme. What most people fail to realize is that everyone wrote that way in the sixteenth century. This is the day of Vlad the Impaler, Sueleman (sp.?) the Great of the Ottoman Empire, the Spanish Inquisition and the Conquestadors, Aztec sacrifices of the beating hearts of their enemies on the high altars of Mexico. Not a very gentile age.

You have a point, though, about anti-Luther propaganda. Very often it is disguised as history. Of course, NPOV, the reverse was often true! --CTSWyneken 20:45, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Marriage

His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, began the tradition of clerical marriage within several Christian traditions. More accurately "revived a long-abandoned tradition" Would anyone object to that? It's not a minor point after all Wetman 04:00, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Neither seems right, I think because Luther's marriage was arguably both an abandonment of one tradition and either a return to or independent institution of another. How about His marriage, on June 13, 1525, to Katharina von Bora, a former nun, was a departure from then-current practice, requiring priestly celibacy, and established the practice of priestly marriage in several Christian traditions. Though the Christian traditions hadn't yet been formed at the time of his marriage, that's a bit backwards. - Nunh-huh 04:14, 18 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I see the point here and perhaps we need to rework the statement. I'd argue, though, that we want to keep the first paragraph very short and summarizing. We will want to do a whole section on Luther's marriage and family life, and Nunh-huh's words would be great there. Can we rework the phrase without making it a few paragraphs? --CTSWyneken 21:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Translation

The phrase ... added several principles to the art of translation sets up the reader but doesn't enlarge on this statement. I'd be interested. Wetman 18:01, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I plan to do so, but haven't gotten that far. (real life has a way of getting in the way of Wiki... 8-) ) Last summer, I got as far as the 95 theses. Working on our Luther exhibit (with actual first printings of many of Luther's works in it) has brought me back into the picture again. --CTSWyneken 21:04, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Online Essay on the Life of Luther

If anyone is interested, the Schaaf-Herzog article on Luther is online at: [1] It is public domain, so if someone wants to cut-and-paste, we can really expand our article rapidly and accurately. It's considered a rare, more or less POV, article written in the 19th Century. --CTSWyneken 21:09, 26 Feb 2004 (UTC)

Great page!

I have been studying Martin Luther most of my life, and I want to compliment you all on a fine page. The fact that I see little need for me to make changes or additions is striking in and of itself, and the joy I have been taking in re-reading it is a special compliment from me to each of you. Keep up the good work! Sam Spade 07:31, 4 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Another item to literature section?

The book "Young Man Luther" by Erik H. Erikson (W. W. Norton & co., 1962) may be worthy to be referred among books on Luther. Its author was professor of psychoanalysis and human development and he wrote an analysis of Luther's struggles from the psychoanalytical (post-Freudian) point of view. However, he is by any means bashing Luther as crazy and the book gives a huge insight into Luther's struggle before and after his conversion. User:Matej

I recently added a bunch of rather controversial edits. I thought many of these were interesting points to make, but I understand that some of them might be disputed or considered POV. If anyone sees a problem, reply to this post (or edit a dissenting opinion into the article, perhaps). Brutannica 06:55, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Luther and the cloaca

Many scholars dispute the fact that Luther made his theological discoveries in the privy. For copyright reasons, I cannot quote the sources in Wikipedia, but if anyone is interested, they could look at the most thorough biography of Luther, the one by Martin Brecht: Martin Luther Vol. 1, p. 122, 227. For this reason, I'm deleting the comment. CTSWyneken 16 November 2004

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