Talk: Karma

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Talk:Karma ARCHIVE: New age, Western interpretation, Step by step, Edgar Cayce, Universal need to believe, fidelity to original Hindu concept

From karma:

"Life is a cycle of conceptual rebirths evident in what can be defined as consciousness. Far from being a strictly action/reaction agent, karma is at work during our physical lives albeit in an unfathomable manner at times (ie. great beings who suffer much)."

I think I actually agree with that. But I'm not sure. Can it be said any more clearly??

*Also* -- we need to phrase this in a neutral manner, not "X is", but "Some people think X is", or "X may be regarded as ..."

Thanks!!

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I think the opening sentence puts karma in the context of Eastern religion; it's not necessary to pepper the entire article with "Some people think..." and "It is believed by some that...". Besides, that's just bad style. ;-) --Stephen Gilbert

moved from article

' Karma as a term is often misunderstood to mean specific accumulation of a sort of negative energy from misdeeds (compare with aspects of the Golden Rule). In fact, while karma includes this concept just because it includes the consequences of all human existence, it is really about accumulation of worldliness, in the sense of worldliness inhibiting spiritual passage. '

I'm not sure if I understand exactly what you are saying, and I think that a refrased version of this would be better suited to later in the article, rather than as the introduction. Sam Spade 04:37, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Tbis is an article that explains NOTHING about karma to the reader unless and until they are willing to wade well into it. There needs to be an introductory summary to give a) the casual reader who won't go deeply into the subject a rudimentary understanding, and b) the serious reader an initial orientation to better form a framework of understanding. The article like it is reads fine as an abysmally arcane piece of esoterica (I do not mean to cast any aspersions on either writing or substance, which seem fine); it needs to be more accessible to the average reader. jaknouse 15:58, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I tried to refrase it. I agree with Jaknouse that there should be a summary in the introduction before the table of contents.Andries 19:02, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I like it how it is now, great work. Sam Spade 19:52, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Much better. Thank you. jaknouse 03:24, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

===Request: Explain Diff with Karma and Christian sin; and Karmic implications of Thoughts=== Somebody, please explain a difference in the concepts of Christian sin and karma. e.g. Something like sin deals with punishment and reward for good behaviour, etc. Also, Christianity does deal not much with thoughts. For example , is bad karma created by wrong thoughts, resentments, hate, etc.? Please place under the Christianity paragraph. Thanks Jondel 07:06, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)~~

What about "if you have sinned in your heart" and all that rah rah? - Nat Krause 09:47, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I suppose that should be considered equivalent to volitive Karma. However, the schools of thought of what is generally meant today by "Christianism" tend to claim that such "Karma" is made null and void by proper practice and faith in God. I am not sure how best to word it - if at all; IMHO Karma simply isn't a very good fit to Christian teachings. Luis Dantas 13:06, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the parallel with Christianity and mention of thoughts.I believe that Karma covers a broad field, including thoughts, although it is a Hindu concept. Jesus seemed to hint that even wrong thoughts can be sinful because the Jews (no offence intended to Jews)in his time seemed to be satisfied at overtly just following the 'Laws' as pointed out in the 'If you have sinned in his heart...' . Jondel 08:00, 13 May 2004 (UTC)~~

Categorization

We should only use the most specific pertinent categories; i.e., if Karma is a Hindu and Buddhist philosophical concept, it shouldn't also be categorized as "Hinduism" or "Buddhism". -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 20:24, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

My problem with this whole categorizing business is that it is liable to be extremely redundant, as you've pointed out. The additional problem with Indian philosophy both Hindu and Buddhist is that it is inevitably a deeply-rooted and practiced religious stream. They were not like the Greeks sitting on marble steps and discussing long dialectics. While they perhaps did do some of that (replace marble steps with kusha grass) the religions we today speak of as Buddhism or Hinduism with their various denominations are such because of their having actively utilized this 'philosophical' concepts. How does one begin to delineate?? Are the philosophical concepts sections irrelevant when dealing with Indian religion? Brahman, for instance, is certainly a philosophical concept of Hinduism and yet it is completely vital to any Hinduism category stated. The philosophy and religion of Buddhism are similarly intertwined. What to do? --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:32, Jun 22, 2004 (UTC)

That's certainly fair, and I've had a related concern myself, but I was planning on waiting until other natural categories presented themselves (Buddhist Ethics, for example, would probably cover all of the non-philosophical uses of Karma in Buddhism) and then add them, rather than using redundent supercategories. -- कुक्कुरोवाच|Talk‽ 21:02, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Western Interpretation Section

I'm not happy with the burgeoning size of this section, particularly because a lot of it doesn't 1) seem appropriate and 2) present anything new. Some of the sections sound like moral apothegms and others represent certain ideas of 'collective karma' (and other such thoughts) as if they were established, brought to new light or revolutionized by Cayce (and new schools in the West), none of which things is true. Also, beyond these two problems, these sections are meant to be either brief elucidations of karma or mentions of influential systems utilizing karma; I understand Cayce and the supposedly 'new western' looks are ostensibly both of these, but in actuality neither is Cayce (or the West) so looming a figure nor the information and theories so original as to merit devouring half the article. I'm not going to excise any material that is not mentioned elsewhere, though the Cayce examples don't seem appropriate and at best should be featured on a separate 'Cayce' article; {with)in a week or so, I'll be trimming it down substantially.

I 'll be creating a Edgar Cayce on Karma and transferring. Hope this is agreeable to everyone.--Jondel 00:24, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Works for me. And when you do, you can transfer the Category:New religious movements tag over to it, since this section is the reason for that tag being on this article. Thanks. --Gary D 01:11, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

OK with the New religous tag. How about this Talk/discussion ->Archive? delete ?Transfer to E.C. on Karma from Categorization 2 par down?. I'll be doing this very soon.--Jondel 02:40, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I'd say archive or sort or sort and archive, use your discretion. --Gary D 03:09, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Archive was done. Also a new wiki page on Edgar Cayce on Karma . The Cayce material was transferred. --Jondel 00:09, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)