Talk: Intelligentsia

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once again i forgot to login before i was making changes.. anyway, question may go to me. Szopen

I have revised the initial subsection totally. Sorry to do, for all, who had contributed. I supposed, however, that the article had been too fragmentary. Linas 15:09, 2004 Jul 15 (UTC)

Thanks for that, the new section is great! It's better than the former one since it's much more detailed and internationalized. However, I'd still like the section about the ethymology of the word preserved. Halibutt 17:59, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

exactly. I don't know why you have removed that ethymology, Linas. Szopen 10:05, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Problems with this article

Hello,

I have a few criticisms regarding this article which I think warrant a major edit:

1. It seems that the origins of the word "Intellingentsia" is most commonly connected with Russian history, including the 19th century socialist movements and the Bolshevik revolution. It seems unfair that these events are barely mentioned in the article.
2. I'd suggest that we create a section that explains what Intelligentsia means, followed by several sub-sections describing significant events/details for specific countries -- Poland, Russia, maybe others.
3. I believe the more narrow definition of the word, as "liberal and patriotic intellectuals" (this may be expanded) deserves to be given up-front. Right now this political aspect of intelligentsia is in the Polish section.
4. (2nd paragraph) The term first appeared in Poland in the first half of 19th century. It was later accepted into Russian,[...]. Is that a fact? AFAIK most English-language sources list the word origins as Russian, not Polish. I certainly never heard about this Polish connection. Perhaps the author could provide some evidence to the contrary.
5. (3rd paragraph) [...] being divided mostly by national dependence [...]. What exactly is "national dependence"?
6. (4th paragraph) [...]changing intelligentsia into class of intellectuals[...]. This seems to contradict the definition, which states that "Intelligentsia" is a social class of intellectuals.
7. ("Poland", 2nd paragraph): [...]The Polish intelligentsia specifically was considered the backbone of the modern Polish nation[...]. Considered by who? Any socialist will tell you that the working class is the backbone of any nation.
8. ("Poland", last paragraph): [...]intelligentsia [are] people believing in their duties. It seems to follow that those who are not members of intelligentia don't believe in their duties. This somehow seems kind of arrogant to me.
9. Generally, I think most of the stuff under Poland applies to other contries as well.

--peestrus 23:46, 26 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1) Indeed, there should be more info.

2) Agreed. Any Russian volunteers?

3) See number 2

4) The very word is of Latin origin intellego, -ere - to understand, to comprehend. It came to Polish language together with countless other latin words and expressions in the 17th century and had the basic meaning of "intelligence" (see also German Intelligenz or French intelligence). However, by late 18th and early 19th centuries the meaning was widened and started to denote a class of "thinkers" as well. On the contrary, the very word had never any conotations in Russian since prior to mid-19th century it didn't exist there at all, neither in the wider sense nor in the Intelligentsia meaning. The Russian equivalents of the word were (and still are) [ponyatlivost'] and probably also [soobrazitelnost'], with [inteligentsia] being used for the class of people only. The word might've become popular in the West thanks to the Russians, but it wasn't them who invented it. It must've been as foreign to them as it was to Poles - a hundred years earlier.

7) Well, not in here :), most of the prominent Polish socialists were members of the inteligentsia themselves. Maybe the backbone is not the best word here, but take a look at those who created Poland after WWI (including the socialists like Piłsudski, Sikorski, Daszynski, Moraczewski, Paderewski...) - 99% of them were inteligentsia, not workers or aristocrats.

9) Yup, perhaps it could be internationalized a bit. Halibutt 03:44, Jul 27, 2004 (UTC)

Well it seems we all understand this word ("Intel-sia") slightly differently. I might make some changes from a Russian viewpoint, let me think about it.

BTW, Russian is my first language, I appologize if I didn't make it clear upfront. Regarding the ethymology -- I'm aware of the the word's Latin roots, I was just surprized to hear it was used in that sense in Polish so early. No pun intended, I believe you :)

OK, regarding the backbone thing -- it sounds like Polish intelligentsia considered itself the backbone of Polish nation. No surprise there. What I'm saying other "social classes" probably had other opinions, no? How about aristocrats? Peasants? --peestrus 04:56, 27 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I forgot to add that in Polish language the -cja suffix is also used to denote other social classes or groups - like for instance generalicja - the group of generals of the Polish Army. Halibutt 07:27, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Status or social class

I believe that intelligentsia form not a social class but a status class (as defined by Max Weber - see his Three-component theory of stratification. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 10:07, 5 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Are you sure you read their definitions carefully? Mikkalai 08:57, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)