Talk: Hanseatic League
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Yay, JHK! Good job. Very helpful. Questions on a first read:
- 1st paragraph - any examples of special trading privileges to offer?
- Nice on the limitations (segregation in merchant quarters)
- To what extent was the League a league of merchants rather than a league of cities? Or, to what extent did the merchant-traders actually rule in their home cities?
--MichaelTinkler
- Luebeck isn't in the GDR. Fixed by JHK.
Do you think the info on Lubeck from that paragraph should go in the Lubeck entry? I'm thinking it might fit better there -- a worthwhile anecdote, but I'm not sure that it goes with much of the rest of the Hansa entry -- Paul Drye
- Probably should, although I think the Hansa cities that actually WERE ( ;-) ) in the Eastern Bloc need mention -- I think there's an argument to be made that their traditions of independence may have helped them to assist in the collapse of the Iron Curtain. JHK
I know it's an attempt at being helpful, but I really *detest* adding weblinks to articles. Although there is a lot of great stuff on the web, the majority of scholarly literature is still to be found in libraries (remember books?). I would really hate to see the Wiki (or Nu) -pedias being used by lazy high-school and college students et al. as a glorified search engine. Don't laugh -- this is a very good possibility. I would ask other contributors to think about whether adding links is really to the benefit of the article. In regards to the ones added here, I have read Postel's article, but it is definitely not comprehensive. JHK
It may be a good idea to have the links show for a while for wikipedians (maybe in a seperate section as a reference) , then remove them ?? user:H.J.
- I think that still defeats the purpose. And some links really are better than others -- for example, the Postel article gives a very good overview of the history of the Hanse cities. It's more informative than harmful, written by a member of the scholarly comunity whose other works we can presumably access. On the other hand, the average person hitting the link won't really ask himself if the article might have been geared towards a specific purpose -- I think I remember it being addressed to a chamber of commerce or something like that. That might have some influence on what facts were included or omitted. Other links that have been posted are to personal web pages or web pages of cities, economic or genealogical organizations, etc. Here, the information must be considered suspect and biased (or maybe just less reliable, since people don't have to verify their sources and can just say what they want) until proved otherwise. This is why I am so leery of adding links anywhere -- except maybe to public domain documents. I just think it's so much better to write an article that doesn't rely on random web sites to prove its point.
- Like many other former Hansa cities that found themselves under Communist government (Gdansk, for example), it reciprocated by turning as much against Communism as possible, and a small but effective right-wing underground began to thrive. After the fall of the Eastern Bloc and Reunification, these cities, and those cities near the old border, like Lübeck, that became hosts to many immigrants from the former DDR, often were the sites of severe right-wing nationalist activity, including attacks on "foreigners," usually those of Turkish descent.
How is it relevant ? And stop calling foreigners-beaters "right-wing". If they want state to stop immigration then they are certainly left-wing, (remember - Hitler was LEFT wing, a SOCIALIST). Taw 22:43 Dec 1, 2002 (UTC)
- Hitler's campaign was largely focused on scaring people about the dangers of the Bolshevik menace.
- Before Hitler got to power, he re-assured German industrialists that he would respect private property and fight labor unions.
- Hitler only got to power with the help from the conservatives in the "Enabling Act" (left wing social democrats opposed it, communists had been arrested after the fire falsely blamed on them).
- After Hitler got to power, he sent thousands and thousands of communists, social democrats and unionists into concentration camps and killed the communist leaders in Germany. He outlawed labor unions and guaranteed corporate profits for Krupp & Co.
- Many of Hitler's moral values were perfectly compatible with typical Christian-conservative parties. He appealed to family values, destroyed "indecent" art and literature, had homosexuals arrested and killed, abortion of "Aryans" outlawed etc. He created extensive youth and family programs. He openly embraced Catholicism ("the basis of our collective morals").
Hitler did place heavy restrictions on industry production, imports, prices etc. But he did not outlaw corporations -- in fact, the profits of the large corporations soared during his regency. Many businessmen (except, of course, for the Jewish ones) continued to support Hitler and his party with much needed funds, knowing full well that he would make sure that communism couldn't gain a foothold. Ultimately, Hitler was of course interested in absolute power -- that's why we call his politics fascist.
But to call Hitler left-wing or socialist is ignorant to the extreme, and an insult to the millions who lost their lives fighting his politics. The strongest and most persistent resistance to Hitler's politics came from communists and socialists. The biggest support came from conservatives and businessmen.
As an aside, left-wing and right-wing are not really accurate labels. We have better terms: fascist, neo-fascist, liberal socialist, conservative socialist, communist, green, progressive, social democrat, christian-conservative, conservative, populist, libertarian ... "Left-wing", however, is typically associated with progressive positions on individual rights and more restrictive views on market regulation. --Eloquence
I agree, that racist pogroms are not appropriate here. It is necessary to mention them, but not in an article about a medieval trade alliance. Regarding your other statement: Of course racists are right-wing - calling them left-wing would completely reverse the habitual language use. -- Cordyph
Wasn't there some relationship between the Hanseatic League and London: an outpost, or something? -- The Anome 23:55, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
yes there was, Luebeck or better the Hanse was the owner of the Stahlhof a part of the riverbank (near the Tower Bridge at the Themse). This place was extra territorial.
