Talk: Guy Fawkes

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Etymology

A little etymological note. I've changed the "is" the origin of the word guy for man to "might be". There is a theory that several "jive" terms, including guy, hipcat, honky, and dig (understand), are from the West African language Wolof. I once combed the OED for these and, while I couldn't vouch for their Wolof origin, I was convinced that there were gaps in the histories of all the words. In the case of "guy", the English sense develops from "effigy" to "odd-looking figure, quiz, frump" by about 1800. The sense of "bloke, chap, ordinary joe" appears in the US in about 1840. There is no chain of shades of meaning between these two. This is a bit of a semantic jump, so I think the Wolof theory deserves being taken as a serious possibility. Gritchka 17:45 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

I wouldn't be surprised if you're right. I was thinking of a G&S song (late 19th century) that mentions "the lady from the provinces who dresses like a guy". Deb 18:12 Jan 31, 2003 (UTC)

While a colorful story, I suspect Guy Fawkes being the eponym of the informal term for an individual is apocryphal. Rather than Semantic progression, I think this explanation is more likely just good old Fake etymology: someone in the past guessing at the origins and their conjecture spreading as an urban legend. Can anyone cite a scholarly reference for the assertion that Fawkes is the model? I couldn't find one, so I'm thinking the story belongs elsewhere or nowhere. Color me skeptical.--StanZegel 03:58, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How does the Oxford Dictionary do for you as a source?

Guy (1806). 1. An effigy of Guy Fawkes carried about in the streets on the anniversary of the Gunspowder Plot and burnt in the evening. 2. A person of grotesque looks or dress; a fright 1836. 3. A man, fellow (US slang) 1896.

The semantic progression seems pretty clear to me. What alternative etymology for "guy" can you offer? Adam 06:27, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The fact that OED may have multiple meanings for the same word does not mean that any of the meanings are derived from any of the others, and the OED entry does not say that they do. The etymology (not just the definition) would be interesting to see. Still, the connection between Guy Fawkes and American slang is extremely improbable. Americans think "Parliament" is a cigarette. Very very few of us would recognize the name of Guy Fawkes, and the uneducated classes that create slang are even more unlikely to have coined an eponym based upon a parochial event in a culture foreign to them. Even those Americans who had closer connections with English culture, back in the 1700s, did not use the term because, as the OED says, the first recorded usage of it in that way was not until 1896. One might as well say that guy wire got its name because Guy Fawkes was hanged for his crime; it would be just as far-fetched and another example of a plausible-sounding but false conjecture by a layman. I suggest the Wolof explanation by User:Gritchka, supra, or an origin in Argot, is more likely than the l-o-n-g s-t-r-e-t-c-h of belief necessary to embrace what is written about a supposed connection in this article and in Semantic progression. --StanZegel 19:31, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

My copy of Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary, 1985, p 544 definitively sources the etymology of "guy" to Guy Fawkes. "Guy" as in "guy wire" is sourced as a probable derivative of the French "gei" (brace). While no dictionary is perfect, I personally consider that more credible than the Wolof theory. Rossami (talk) 23:14, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

With the first recorded use as american slang for a person being recorded as 1896, I think the yiddish word goy (often heard on the streets of New York) that has a similar meaning is a better explanation than Guy Fawkes. StanZegel 20:12, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Links

Although this Article has an internal link to the Houses of Parliament, there is not mention of Guy Fawkes under that topic, House of Commons or Palace of Westminster.

What is the best way forward as I don't want to mess up the current layout? --Martin TB 13:21, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

There probably shouldn't be a reference under House of Commons anyway, because the building he sought to blow up was the House of Lords. They were not in the same building in those days. It was only after the fire of 1834 destroyed all the collection of structures that constituted the Old Palace of Westminster, that the present building putting them under the same roof was designed and built. --StanZegel 03:58, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Also there is an empty link to Guy Fawkes night, but a valid one to Bonfire night. I don't think we need two links, can one be redirected internally to the other? --Martin TB 13:50, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Why Guy?

I have always puzzled about why we call him Guy when his name was Guido. The article doesn't mention this. Can anyone shed any light? — Trilobite (Talk) 02:56, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

While serving in the Spanish Army in the Netherlands, he adoped the Spanish form (Guido, pronounced Gheedo) of his French/English name (Guy, pronounced "ghee"). --StanZegel 03:58, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)