Talk: Gibraltar

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EUROPEAN UNION MEMBERSHIP:

I've posted this comment in Talk:European Union:

"Gibraltar Bearing in mind thes sections of the EC Treaty:

'Article 299' 3. ... This Treaty shall not apply to those overseas countries and territories having special relations with the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland which are not included in the aforementioned list [annex II of the Treaty]. 4. The provisions of this Treaty shall apply to the European territories for whose external relations a Member State is responsible. [...] 6. Notwithstanding the preceding paragraphs: (a) this Treaty shall not apply to the Faeroe Islands; (b) this Treaty shall not apply to the sovereign base areas of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland in Cyprus; (c) this Treaty shall apply to the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man only to the extent necessary to ensure the implementation of the arrangements for those islands set out in the Treaty concerning the accession of new Member States to the European Economic Community and to the European Atomic Energy Community signed on 22 January 1972.

Wouldn't Gibraltar be considered a part of EU? Because: (a) In spite of being excluded since it is not mentioned in the list of Annex II quoted in the above section 3, it is included in EU by section 4 (in fact, Gibraltar is one of the few territories that this section seems to apply). (b) Gibraltar is NOT mentioned in section 6., which excludes some European territories from EU membership, which would be granted under section 4. So Gibraltar is considered part of the EU by section 4. of art. 299. Moreover, Gibratarians will vote in the next European Parliament elections. So, why is Gibraltar considered not part of EU in this article of Wikipedia? If no good answer be posted here, I'll take the responsability of changing the article my self in a few days. Cheers to all! " Marco Neves

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Just check the Special member state territories and their relations with the EU wiki . I'm afraid that the new EU constitution will not solve this issue, just to avoid clashes between Spain and the Uk.

theWikipedian

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It's possibly worthy of note that Gibraltar is voting in the 2004 European Elections (to the European Parliament this month, as a part of the UK's South-West region. The colony could well prove decisive in one of the MEPs elected from that constituency. -- OwenBlacker 23:54, Jun 2, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

1 Last colonial people? 2 Is overall tone neutral? 3 Calpe 4 Motto 5 New picture - NPOV? 6 Territorial waters 7 Stories planted by Spain Government 8 Language 9 Territorial waters and economy 10 Map 11 Population density

Last colonial people?

The article currently says:

Also, it is worth mentioning that nowadays Gibraltarians are the last colonial people in Europe.

By what definition is this said? Many parts of Europe have changed hands back and forth over the centuries, and Gibraltar is hardly the only one to be contested. By such a definition of "colonial people", one could argue that France's control of Brittany is colonial, or the UK's control of Northern Ireland, or Russia's control of Kaliningrad, among many other candidates. So I removed this, unless someone can explain what this meant. --Delirium 08:27, Jun 12, 2004 (UTC)

The UN regards Gibraltar as a colony, and it is listed on its Decolonisation Committee's list of 'non-self-governing territories'. By contrast, Ceuta and Melilla, Spain's North African enclaves, claimed by Morocco, are regarded as part of Spain, just as Brittany, Northern Ireland and Kaliningrad are officially regarded as part of France, the UK and Russia respectively.

Is overall tone neutral?

I've just had the pleasure of a weekend in Gibraltar and came here to see if there were any photos were required. However as I read the article I got the impression that its POV is much more allied to that of the typical Gibraltarian view than being NPOV. Am I right? If so, does anything need to be changed? Pcb21| Pete 18:36, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)

You're mostly wrong, and you were wrong to remove the politics article. I am not Gibraltarian, and there are many things about the place that infuriate me, but is a fact that Spain refuses to recognise the +350 dialling code, tries to prevent Gibraltar to join international sporting bodies, bans direct flights and ferry services, causes long delays at the frontier, and is perfectly open about it. Spain has also openly stated at the UN that the 'present inhabitants' (its words) are not a colonial people.

I also replied at Talk:Politics of Gibraltar. NPOV is about more than just being factual (although that is critically important of course). An entirely factual rant about what an ogre Spain is not neutral. Pcb21| Pete 07:45, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I may have moved this information to relevant sections on transportation, communications, history, etc, and I removed the comment about 'pure colony', which was originally used by the Government of Gibraltar, and references to harrassment, However, your claim that it is a 'rant about what an ogre Spain is' is missing the point. I have also said why Spain thinks these restrictions are justified- hence reference to availability of telephone numbers.

I'm Spanish, so I'm very likely biased 8-). That said, the article shows mainly the UK/Gibraltar view of things. We might need to add something about the aiport, built on spanish ground never part of the Utrecht treaty, for example.

The fact that both UK and Gibraltar are ambiguous about the status of the rock whenever suits them also may be mentioned (if it's part of the UK, which I may agree, why be recognized as an independent country? If it wants to be an independent country, it must therefore be a colony now...)

But in any case, it's a fun to read article. English people tend to get very emotional about Gibraltar, what with the rest of the colonies gone, and all... ;-) User:JopeMoro

There's already an article called Gibraltar controversy that covers the dispute. This page is specifically about Gibraltar itself. The dispute is mentioned (as it has to be in an article on Gibraltar), but we don't want this article just turning into a discussion of the dispute. As far as emotions are concerned - can you explain what Spain is doing holding onto Perejil, the Chafarinas Islands, Penon de Velez de la Gomera and Penon de Alcucemas, with particular reference to Spain sending in the army to recapture Perejil from the Moroccans? jguk 21:36, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Well, it's nice to have a separate article, as it leaves a NPOV article on gibraltar as the main one. Not sure what Perejil et.al. have to do with the Gibraltar situation, unless it's used to justify it... But, hey, as I said: English people get very emotional with Gibraltar... 8-) User:JopeMoro

My only point is that the Spanish are (and always have been) attached to their overseas territories. I can't think of any example where they have voluntarily given up the whole of a colony. You Spaniards seem to be even more clingy than us Brits:)

Naah, we gave up Guinea Ecuatorial, Fernando Poo, Sahara Occidental and at least a couple of small other ones, all in Africa if memory serves... ;-) And no, your point is that the article should not reflect the conflict and be kept without any POV that is not the UK one, all I'm saying is that that is inherently POV... But, hey, who cares, I mean, really... 8-)

I don't really care - only pointing out. I don't know much about Equatorial Guinea's independence, but the Spanish government took an interest in it again now it has oil: Spain sent a warship towards Equatorial Guinea just prior to the attempted coup! Spain gave up Western Sahara and Rio del Oro as they had no natural resources and a guerilla campaign for independence: it was uneconomic and militarily problematic for Spain to keep them. Sidi Ifni was only given up after an economic blockade from Morocco too. I'm confused though - are you claiming the article is POV or NPOV? :) jguk 19:27, 29 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The article is not neutral and very POV... (corrected above, also. Note to self: don't wikipediate late at night 8-)

Which bits do you claim are POV? jguk 11:39, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Calpe

Either Calpe is a Phoenician name or it is Greek.

And there is another town Calpe in the Spanish Mediterranean, famous by the Peñón de Ifach, another rocky mountain by the sea.

Motto

What authority is there for the authenticity of the currently quoted motto "Nulli Expugnabilis Hosti"? I haven't seen this anywhere else. Admittedly, the inscription beneath the arms of Gibraltar -- "Montis Insignia Calpe" (Badge of the Rock of Gibraltar) -- is more of a label than a slogan... -- Picapica 08:33, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The official Gibraltar government website - www.gibraltar.gov.gi - gives authority for this Jongarrettuk 18:30, 17 Sep 2004 (UTC)

New picture - NPOV?

The newly added picture implies that usually there are amounts of british flags in Gibraltar's buildings, and although there might be some during normal times of the year, it can be clearly seen that this photo's flags are in commemoration of the tercentary, fact that is not stated in the picture's text.

I would either strongly NPOV the photo's text or remove the picture itself.

What does everybody else think?

xDCDx 10:25, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

It seems that the caption rather than the actual picture is the problem. With it suitably reworded, I think the picture would be fine. (And note I have been arguing that the article has a pro-Gibraltar-is-British-and-look-at-those-evil-Spainards POV). Pcb21| Pete 10:29, 13 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I have slightly edited both the image text, and the image foot. I think that now is more factual, hope nobody gets angry with the change. xDCDx 14:40, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Territorial waters

This section seems long in comparison to the rest of the article. It's interesting in the context of the territorial dispute of Gibraltar, but it seems strange to devote so much space to a side issue (bearing in mind that Spain claims all of Gib, not just the territorial seas). I propose deleting, or moving to a new page dealing with Spain's claims to Gibraltar. What do others think? Jongarrettuk 07:29, 19 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Stories planted by Spain Government

I've edited out The Spanish Government, as part of its campaign to reclaim the Rock repeatedly plants. This is a very seious allegation; some sources are needed here

Ejrrjs 23:58, 21 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Language

The one and only official language of Gibraltar is English. Gibraltarians, when speaking amongst themselves, often speak in Spanish (the local dialect is called Llanito, which has been influenced by English, but is intelligible to all Spanish speakers. To refer to Spanish as a vernacular language first sounds silly, second, it is unclear as to what it really means, and third is tautologous since Llanito is already referred to in the article. Jongarrettuk 06:25, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Territorial waters and economy

I've decided to be bold and delete the territorial waters section - it seems out of place here and is rather an arcane subject. It's also, imho, too long in comparison to the rest of the article. If someone wants to start a page on Spain's claim on Gibraltar, it can go back in there. Please don't revert without making comment on here as to why you disagree with me.

I have also deleted two paragraphs in economy, which seemed more to be discussing arguments between Spain and UK rather than Gibraltar itself.

By the way, these changes have meant I've had to move the piccis and delete the last one of the 1939 map so that the article still looks ok. Jongarrettuk 06:33, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I created Gibraltar controversy with the text you removed, and added a wikilink to it in Gibraltar and another in Politics of Gibraltar, I also replaced the text-stamped and low resolution image of the article by the, in my opinion neater, 1939 map. If somebody has high resolution text-free images of Gibraltar, feel free to add them. --xDCDx 15:02, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I've carried out quite a significant rewrite - I'm sure people will tell me what they think and improve upon it further (In particular I'd like to find some up to date economic statistics to add.) I'm also moving quite a bit to the [[Gibraltar controversy page, which will need some significant tidying up. 20:56, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)~

Map

Can someone find a decent map? As I read the article, there are no maps giving even a general idea of the layout of the country. P3d0

Population density

|1| True density

Data from the article (and the CIA factbook)
Area = 6.5 km²
Population Total (2003 E) = 27,776
Density = 4270/km²

Anyway, let's do the math: 27,776/6.5 = 4273,2307692307692307692307692308
Why do you think it is approximately 4,800?

Ejrrjs 20:44, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

|2| Density ranking

According to List of countries by population density: Monaco (16,000/km²) leads followed by Singapore (6,430/km²)...but these are sovereign countries, not "territories".

How about Hong Kong (6,771/km²) ?
Or Macau (18,182/km²)?
Why does it matter being the *most* something, anyway?
Please, clarify.
Ejrrjs 21:16, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I got this from the Guinness World Records website [1] (see Modern Society, then People and Places). This disagrees with the size given on [2], which is a Gibraltar government website. Guinness are obviously excluding Macao and Hong Kong and all sovereign states. jguk 22:10, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Ok, why should wikipedia exclude Macao and Hong Kong? Their status as Special Administrative Regions of China are more or less similar to G. status within the UK (i.e. some degree of self-governance but not full sovereignty). What other non-sovereign territories are you thinkging of as having less density than G.? Ejrrjs 22:18, 30 Oct 2004 (UTC)