Talk: Frederick II, Holy Roman Emperor
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Selected on Template:March 18 selected anniversaries (may be in HTML comment)
He also captured recaptured Jerusalem in the crusades of his time, due to political machinations and established a muslim city in italy I think, but I don't have the sources handy to check up on the details.
Actually he negotiated with the emir of Egypt to get Jerusalem. He got a deal that he couldt keep Jerusalem for 10 years, and as such he did "free" Jerusalem without the use of arms. He had good relations with the muslims (Sicily his kingdom, had a minor muslim population). He also hosted Jews and muslim scientists and artsists at his court.
This genealogical table is not very informative: i think it blinds the reader with all these colours. Can we get rid of it? MvHG 07:07, 19 May 2004 (UTC)
- I've restored the table, because I do find that it can be informative. If the colours are blinding, perhaps they could be toned down. Eclecticology 19:25, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)
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election as King of the Germans
We say Frederick was elected King of the Germans in 1211 at the Diet of Nuremberg. The generally excellent German Wikipedia article says December 9, 1212 in Mainz. Any citations for our version? or theirs? -- Jmabel 04:00, Sep 18, 2004 (UTC)
I've usually heard 1212. Not sure about location. I'll also look at the article, as you asked below, although I'm not sure how comprehensive my knowledge of Frederick II is. john k 22:32, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
can someone please review "Life"?
I've brought in a bunch of material from the German-language Wikipedia to the "Life" section. Some of it straight out contradicted some of ours; it seemed generally better researched, so I have generally followed it. Could someone who knows this period better than me have a general look through this and see if they think anything is not correct? I would not want to stake my life on the accuracy of some details of this article, although I think the general picture is correct. -- Jmabel 22:08, Sep 20, 2004 (UTC)
I've gone over it - it looks mostly right to me. The bit about 1211/1212 seems to be that he was elected in both (as well as in 1215). The bit about the epidemic when he wanted to go on crusade is true, as far as it goes, but conceals the fact that Frederick had been delaying for years his departure. I also put in considerably more detail on Frederick's involvement with the crusader state (I could probably put in somewhat more, from Runciman, but that might unbalance the article). john k 22:56, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Heirs
I've continued the translation into the section on heirs. I believe my translation is accurate, but I'm not sure all of the material I am translating should be trusted. I suspect that some matters are probably disputed by historians, and the German text, while generally well-researched, is not clear in its sourcing of particular facts. It definitely has some dubious links, such as the wrong Henry VII. In a few places, where I knew what was going on I've clarified, in others I'm not sure. General review would be in order. Also:
- Someone may want to add more links.
- There is surprisingly little here on his wives.
- Some of the place names may have English-language equivalents of which I am unaware.
- This article says without qualification that Frederick on his deathbed married Bianca Lancia. Our article on Manfred of Sicily says "Bianca Lancia... is reported on somewhat slender evidence to have been married to the emperor just before his death." Also, on several points, what we say here doesn't line up all that well with what was say in the article on Manfred. Someone who knows this period better than I should sort this out. In particular, (1) no mention there of the fate of his wife and child, and (2) judging by what is there, "continued - after initial attempts at reconciliation - Frederick's conflict with the Pope" seems a bit cursory.
- This article says Conrad I, Duke of Swabia "was publicly executed on the instructions of Charles I of Sicily". However, the article on Charles says "Manfred's defeat and death in battle were followed (1268) by the defeat and execution of his nephew Conradin..." Someone is confused, but who?
I'm afraid I'm rather ignorant on all this, just translating for the most part.
This article in general could do with a lot more sourcing. For example, what is the source of the statement that Frederick could read and write nine languages? It seems likely enough but is the sort of thing that ought to have a cited source. There's a good general set of references, but no way to relate the content of the article back to those sources.
In any event, I will continue the translation at my next opportunity. -- Jmabel 07:57, Sep 21, 2004 (UTC)
I do not know the source for the statement concerning Frederick's polyglotism, but I can verify it. Page 415 of Holy War - The Crusades and Their Impact on Today's World by Karen Armstrong says of Frederick II that "[a]t a time when most people spoke at best only three languages, he spoke nine and wrote in seven" – the exact number of languages he could write is probably unknown. -- Itai 20:02, 22 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- I take it from your including a page number you have that at hand. Can you add that, with publication info, to the references and add an appropriate citiation in the article? Or if you just drop the publication info (publisher, place of publication, date, ideally ISBN too) here, I'll do it. -- Jmabel 00:02, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
- Sorry about that. I have actually written the reference, pressed "Show preview", but then at to leave and neglected to press "Save page". Returning several hours afterward, I saw that you did it yourself. Oops. (By the way, I don't know if anybody has said it already, but your work on this article is most commendable.) -- Itai 22:25, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Re: his wives, the only one I know much about is Yolande of Jerusalem, who died in childbirth at the tender age of 16 (I believe - her mother had also died in childbirth in 1212, I think, and Yolande died in 1228). His third wife was a daughter of King John of England, and thus sister to both Henry III and to Richard of Cornwall, who got himself elected king after Frederick's death. Re: Bianca Lancia, I think our article on Manfred is more correct - I've never heard it said without qualification that the two were ever married. Re: Conradin, I'm not sure what's going on. He certainly shouldn't be called "Conrad I, Duke of Swabia" (Among other things, I suspect he was not the first Conrad to be duke of Swabia). But other than that, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Manfred was defeated and killed at Benevento in 1266. 2 years later, Conradin invades Italy with a German army. After initial success, he is defeated and captured by Charles at Tagliacozza, and shortly thereafter publicly executed in the marketplace at Naples on Charles's orders. john k 00:16, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Personality
Translated. Some of this is a bit redundant, internally and with the material above: someone may want to tighten it. Also, as with the previous section, it could possibly use more links. -- Jmabel 06:15, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
Jerusalem
The Barons of the Kingdom of Jerusalem did not recognize Frederick as King following his wife's death. Rather, they recognized his son Conrad as King, and Frederick as his regent. When Conrad came of age, they immediately kicked Frederick out as Regent (although, to be honest, he had not been effectively in control for his some time, his Bailli, Roger Filangieri, having been kicked out by the mid 1230s, and had thus only been a titular regent), and appointed their own (the Dowager Queen of Cyprus, who was next in line after Conrad)...Frederick certainly claimed the throne after 1228, but that claim was never actually recognized (Perhaps it was briefly recognized in the immediate aftermath of his crusade, but even then, it's unclear, since they indisputably did recognize him as regent). But Runciman points out at length how much weakened Frederick's position was by Yolande's death. So I'm not sure we should say without qualification that he continued as King after her death. He certainly claimed to be King. But, then, Edward III claimed to be King of France. The situation of an absent regent claiming the throne that rightfully belongs to his son is, though, a bizarre one, so it's unclear exactly how this should be dealt with. john k 07:30, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
- In view of that, I've changed this in the chart to say, "and alone or as regent for Conrad after her death". Sounds to me, though, like this merits an entire paragraph in the article, roughly what you just wrote. Do you want to take a shot at it, or should I edit your paragraph here and put it in the article? -- Jmabel 08:24, Sep 23, 2004 (UTC)
I'll try to do it later today. I'll have a look at my Runciman to get the details straight. john k 17:03, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Parentage and children
I see this was discussed above, but I wanted to try to get rid of that green, yellow and purple table. It could at least use some nicer colours :) I made a much simpler list, if that's acceptable...the previous table is still there, stuck into an HTML comment, so it can be easily reverted. Adam Bishop 06:29, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)
