Talk: First Lady of the United States
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Archive of previous discussion at Talk:First Lady of the United States/Archive.
Picking up where I think we left off, I'm going to add some more details before making a proposal. I'm hoping that we are close to accord on this article. The following is my POV opinion, adapted to accomodate what others have expressed.
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Problems with the phrase "First Lady"
Is there a definitive answer to what a "First Lady" is? The simplest approach is to reserve this phrase to refer only to living wives of sitting presidents, but this approach is not in keeping with established convention. The term was basically invented in 1877, so any attempt to enumerate First Ladies before then is going to be absent of contemporanous support.
The central problems
There are two central problems. The first is the lack of agreement for when non-wives can be called "First Lady". The second is that there is no central entity that officially bestows the title.
Which authority?
If there were a single entity that bestowed the title of "First Lady", we could simply defer to that body in making our list. Unfortunately, there is no such entity. There are several "experts" that have complied lists of "First Ladies", but these lists are in disagreement. If we are to use a list from one of these "experts" as our authority, we need to agree on which of them to use.
The two "most official" lists I know are at whitehouse.gov (and was copied from The First Ladies by Margaret Brown Klapthor and Allida Black and published by the White House Historical Association) and at the National First Ladies' Library. The former errs towards "wives only", while the latter errs towards those who filled the role.
Specific examples and loose ends
To assist us, I have made a list of every candidate for consideration for "First Lady" that I know of, and classified them by their circumstances.
Class A - Wives of Presidents
subclass A-a - Living Wives of Sitting Presidents
- This subclass covers the vast majority of women under consideration and presents us with the least disagreement. These women are "First Ladies" under every meaningful definition.
- Martha Washington, Abigail Adams, Dolley Madison, Elizabeth Monroe, Louisa Adams, Letitia Tyler, Julia Tyler, Sarah Polk, Abigail Fillmore, Jane Pierce, Mary Lincoln, Eliza Johnson, Julia Grant, Lucy Hayes, Lucretia Garfield, Frances Cleveland, Caroline Harrison, Frances Cleveland, Ida McKinley, Edith Roosevelt, Helen Taft, Ellen Wilson, Edith Wilson, Florence Harding, Grace Coolidge, Lou Hoover, Eleanor Roosevelt, Bess Truman, Mamie Eisenhower, Jackie Kennedy, Lady Bird Johnson, Pat Nixon, Betty Ford, Rosalynn Carter, Nancy Reagan, Barbara Bush, Hillary Clinton, and Laura Bush
- (*) Anna Harrison and Margaret Taylor are special cases covered below in D below.
subclass A-b - Late Wives of Sitting Presidents
- Some lists will include late wives who died before their husbands took office as "First Ladies", while other lists exclude these women as never holding the position.
- Martha Jefferson, Rachel Jackson, Hannah Van Buren, Ellen Arthur, and Alice Roosevelt
subclass A-c - Divorced Wives of Sitting Presidents
- Ronald Reagan is the only president to have divorced. His first wife is generally not considered a "First Lady", although some lists will include her.
- Jane Wyman
subclass A-d - New Wives of Former Presidents
- Two presidents have remarried after their presidential terms were complete. These new wives are generally not considered "First Ladies", although some lists will include them.
- Caroline Fillmore and Mary Lord Harrison
Class B - Hostesses of Presidents without Wives
- This class covers those women who acted as hostess for Presidents who were without wives, due to either being bachelors or widowers. Many, but not all, lists will call these "First Ladies".
- Martha Jefferson Randolph, Dolley Madison (under Thomas Jefferson), Emily Donelson, Sarah Yorke Jackson, Angelica Van Buren, Priscilla Tyler, Harriet Lane, Mary McElroy, Rose Cleveland, Mary McKee
Class C - Substitutes for A and B
- This class covers those women who "filled in" for one of the above women when the official hostess was sick, injured, or otherwise unable to do her duties. These women are generally not considered "First Ladies", although some lists will include them.
- Maria Jefferson Eppes, Eliza Hay, Letitia Semple, Mary Fillmore, Martha Patterson, Helen Taft, Margaret Wilson, Helen Bones, and Chelsea Clinton.
Class D - Oddball cases
- There were two special cases that did not fit directly into any of the above.
- First: President William Harrison died in Washington before his wife Anna could join him. In the short time that he was there, his daughter Jane filled the role of hostess. Since Anna was never present in the White House, and never acted as hostess, lists differ as to how they recognize Anna versus Jane.
- Second: Margaret Taylor, wife of President Zachary Taylor, had no interest whatsoever in fulfulling the social duties of hostess. Although she was resident in Washington, the role of First Lady was instead filled by her daughter, Mary Bliss. Lists differ as to how the recognize Margaret versus Mary.
Proposed Solution
I propose we accept as "First Lady" all women noted as such by the National First Ladies' Library. Generally, they recognize class A-a, class B, Margaret Taylor, Jane Harrison, and Anna Harrison as "First Lady in Abstentia". This would let us recognize some "authority" without making arbitrary decisions ourselves, as long as we agree to merge Mary Bliss from category D into category C.
I further propose that in a separate list we note the women in class C as being "acting" or "temporary" first ladies, and I'm open to how we phrase this.
I'm not sure how to handle the women from A-b, A-c, or A-d. I'm open to suggestions
A very interesting and thought provoking solution. Congratulations. I'll have to give it some thought before making suggestions. One thing does strike me. I don't think it necessary to list as First Lady any woman who was not associated with a president when in office, eg, wives who died before their husbands became president, ex-wives from before their husband became president, wives married after their husband left office. But other than that, well done on a very constructive and thought-provoking proposal. ÉÍREman 01:41 Apr 24, 2003 (UTC)
- I agree about classes A-b, A-c, and A-d. The two definitions both exclude these women, since they were neither hostesses of the White House nor wives of sitting presidents. I think it would be highly counterintuitive to have Jane Wyman on a list of first ladies. - Montréalais
Oy. I'm sure this is just a first cut, but the ladies' names need to be matched with the actual Wiki articles. It's Martha Washington, for example. -- Zoe
- Hi Zoe. I just did my best at accomplishing that by creating redirect articles where I knew they would help. -º¡º
Hypothetical female pres
Regarding the language or have her husband act as an analogous "First Gentleman", "First Master", or "First Lord".
The point is that nobody know what unofficial title, if any, would be applied to the husband of a female president. First Gentleman is a good guess, and is pleasing to the ear due to the assumed balance between "Lady" and "Gentlemen". But the title of "First Lady" reflects on the social duties of being "Lady of the house". The analogs to this position are "Master of the house" or "Lord of the house", and hence the improbable "First Master" and "First Lord".
- Sorry, no. "First Master" or "First Lord" will never happen; it wouldn't even occur to the people concerned. - Hephaestos 20:08 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- It isn't an issue of peerage, it is a question of social etiquette. "Lady of the House" and "Master of the House' are phrases used in etiquette handbooks to decribe the hostess and host of a social occasion. The word "Lady" in "First Lady" comes from her social role, and hence "First Master", although doubtful, is possible. "First Husband" has also been hypothesized, although the article does not propose it.
- I can't imagine more than three US citizens liking "First Master", and newspapers would have a field day. The choice of term is politically touchy, and the female candidate's team will have chosen and popularized the "best" one, for instance by mentioning it casually on morning talk shows, well before the nominating convention so that it doesn't become a campaign issue. Stan 21:30 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- The thing here in my view is that these need to be valid possibilities that have been conjectured by someone whose opinion is relevant (for one example, a former White House protocol officer). If my memory serves,"First Gentleman" and "First Husband" fit this bill, but "First Master" and "First Lord" don't (although I'll gladly retract that view if a citation can be made where someone mentioned these in a non-jocular manner). - Hephaestos 21:36 1 Jul 2003 (UTC)
- Would it help that in the Philippines we use the term "First Gentleman" for the husband of Pres. Gloria Macapagal-Arroyo? --seav 12:25, Aug 6, 2003 (UTC)
- Thank you for this, and not just for its relevance to the long-term discussion re US! IMO also a good starting point for Hostesses and quasi-hostesses of nations or the better title that someone will come up with. Don't forget Margaret Thatcher's and Golda Meir's arrangements, and, hmm, is it Madame Pompidou or Marie Antoinette i'm thinking of? And is the attendance of both wife and mistress at a state funeral (for Francois Mitterand?) at all on-topic? --Jerzy 20:17, 2004 Jan 5 (UTC)
The discussion of First Ladies of the female US presidents is hypothetical and unencyclopedic, and well, arrogant: at least 280 million will participate in this decision when there is serious motion twd there being a right answer to the question. (Notice that you haven't heard anyone ask who would be Carol Moseley Braun's first lady.)
The following text that i've removed from the article First Lady of the United States
- If the United States were to have a female President, it is not clear who would take the position of First Lady. A female president could act as her own First Lady, select a female relative or friend to occupy the role, or have her husband act as an analogous "First Gentleman".
should be preserved here, even if the rest is archived, as a starting point for more meaningful discussion when a woman wins a major party pres'l primary, or when her third-party candidacy takes off. --Jerzy 20:17, 2004 Jan 5 (UTC)
There are currently nine US states that have female governors: Arizona, Connecticut, Delaware, Hawaii, Kansas, Louisiana, Michigan, Montana, and Utah. Janet Napolitano of Arizona, Ruth Ann Minner of Delaware, and Linda Lingle of Hawaii are unmarried so it is unclear what the husband of the governor would be titled there. Terry Hull, husband of Arizona governor Jane Dee Hull, Raymond Blanco, husband of Louisiana governor Kathleen Blanco, and Daniel Mulhern, husband of Michigan governor Jennifer Granholm, use the term first gentleman. Myron Walker, husband of Utah governor Olene Walker uses the term "first lad," dropping the "y" from "lady." Lou Rell has no plans to be a public figure when his wife, Jodi Rell, becomes governor of Connecticut, so it is unclear what his title will be. It is also unclear what title Harry Martz, husband of Montana governor Judy Martz, will go by. On the other hand, Gary Sebelius, husband of Kansas governor Kathleen Sebelius, seems to prefer the term "First Dude." I hope this helps. Rascalb 07:05, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)
The whole idea of a "First Lady" is a sexist one that assumes that a wife's only duty is to serve her husband, and be a hostess. This is now no longer the norm, women now lead their own lives and have jobs of their own.
