Talk: Das Lied der Deutschen
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Verboten to sing the first two stanzas
pardon me, but a 'das lied der deutschen' is totally unknown in germany. the name of the song is 'deutschlandlied' and actually is the third stanza (stave,strophe) the german national Anthem. furthermore is it forbidden to sing the first two stanza, which includes former borders to germany. my mother is born in austria and told that this song was also the austrian national anthem with of course different words. with other words ' IT IS FORBIDDEN IN GERMANY TO SING "deutschland über alles", cause it belongs to the first stanza. [unsigned comment]
- No, this is an Urban Legend. It is not forbidden in Germany to sing the first two stanzas.
- --Eberon 19:03, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- it is highly inappropriate but not forbidden to sing the first 2 stanzas. The original Title of the song was "Das Lied der Deutschen (Deutschlandlied)" Deelkar 04:57, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
English names for the geography of Germany
The straits between Norway and Denmark that are approximately East-West are called "Skagerrak" in English. Where the same ocean then bends south and follows the coast of Denmark, it is called "Oresund". I'm not aware of an English name for it once one leaves the Oresund, until one reached the Gulf of Riga to the east or the Aland Sea to the north between Sweden and Finland. -- Paul Drye
What do "Memel" and "Belt" refer to?
I don't know the English names for "Memel" and "Belt"... The "Memel" is a river in the Baltic, "Belt" is the German expression for the part of the North Sea between Germany and Sweden.[unsigned comment]
- Actually, that would have to be the Baltic Sea, as pointed out by User:Derek Ross on the belt disambiguation page. :-) • Benc • 09:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
Maas to the memel=the meuse in holland to the memel near Kaliningrad, etsch to the belt=border of the austrio-italian alps to the former holstein border in denmark, which marked out all 40 german states, including austria/ancient german settlements of bohemia and movaria-before the slavs eventually took it over (modern day czechoslovakia) and all of the Imperial germany's borders 1871-1918. [unsigned comment]
- Memel is the same in English, or at least that's how it's named in The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich which I consulted. Belt doesn't seem to be mentioned there. --Dmerrill
Okay, from the above comments we have two alternate definitions of "Belt". (1) the Baltic Sea between Germany and Sweden; or (2) the former Holstein border, near Denmark. Geographically, this is more or less the same area. But if anyone has a definitive answer, please update the Belt page accordingly. Thanks. • Benc • 09:49, 12 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Question withdrawn. An anonymous contributor provided the answer: the Little Belt. • Benc • 04:46, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- Fair enough. I just assumed that since 217.228.67.219 is a German IP, the contributor knew what s/he was talking about. Needless to say, though, if anyone has a contradicting source, edit away. :-) • Benc • 07:07, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)
- de:Belt - "Belt (dän. Bælt) ist ein veralteter Begriff für die Ostsee" -> "Belt is an old term for the Baltic Sea"
Source of the music
The music was taken from the Kaiser quartet, 1797 by Hayden. -P von stasser
Song name: "Deutschland Über Alles" vs. "Das Lied der Deutschen"
- Das Lied der Deutschland is another name for Deutschland uber alles, both are the same song. Or it is referred to Das Deutschlandleid. Officially it is Das Lied der Deutschland, but Deutschland über alles is most commonly used. It is too bad that my country can not use this song, like France says "viva la france" and US uses from sea to shining sea, are we not allowed to express nationalism like other countries? nice website you have here. [unsigned comment]
Hmmm, without the music to go along with the lyrics, I may be mistaken, but isn't this song commonly referred to as "Deutschland Uber Alles" in English? I've never heard the name "Das Lied der Deutschen" before. Or are they different songs that just share those three words in their lyrics?
If it's the same song, with the name changed for obvious reasons post-WWII, that should probably be mentioned in the history of the song. A redirect might be useful too -- certainly if someone had asked me before reading this article what the German national anthem was I'd have answered "Deutschland Uber Alles"; it'd have taken me approximately 47 billion more guesses to come up with "Das Lied der Deutschen" -- Paul Drye
- The song is called "Das Lied der Deutschen". The first verse starts with "Deutschland Deutschland über alles". This verse is not officially part of the anthem anymore. When Germans sing the national anthem, they only sing the third verse of the Deutschlandlied: "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit...". --AxelBoldt
Yes, I understand that. What I mean is "At some point in the past was Das Lied der Deutschen entitled or popularly known as Deutschland Uber Alles, or are they two different songs?" If the former, in my opinion a note about the name change is necessary. As written, the article implies that the song was called Das Lied der Deutschen as soon as it stopped being a hymn to Emperor Franz. -- Paul Drye
- This implication is correct. The three stanzas given in the main article were always called "Das Lied der Deutschen" or "das Deutschlandlied". Maybe some people colloquially refered to it as "Deutschland, Deutschland über alles" when that part was still sung. There is only one song and its name has never changed. [unsigned comment]
Hm! I've learned something new today. Before this discussion I would have sworn the song was named after the first line of the original first stanza. If anyone else from the English-speaking world is reading along, is that just me, or is it a common misconception for English speakers? -- Paul Drye
- Dunno, Paul -- Personally, I know I thought of it as Deutschland über Alles in a WWII sense, but only in that context. I'm not sure I ever thought it was the actual title, though...maybe because I tend to mix it up with a couple of hymns, anyway -- of course, I also want to sing O Canada to the tune of Tannenbaum! US Americans probably do think of it as DUA, though...not realizing that 'über' doesn't mean 'over', but rather 'above', in the sense of 'more than'. As my kid (raised speaking German) used to say -- i love chocolate above all candy! JHK
- In Germany it is always or (nearly always) referred to as "Das Deutschlandlied". Singing or using the first stanza is widely viewed as an expression of right-wing political views or outright nazism. Kosebamse 11:36 Jan 29, 2003 (UTC)
- The tune appears in many English hymn books under the name "Austria", though I've forgotten what words go with it. There's a fairly well-known story of a number of German prisoners of war who were attending church one Sunday in WW2 who were astonished when the organist started playing the tune! -- Arwel 03:12 Mar 27, 2003 (UTC)
- In the Broadman hymnal and other hymnals used in evangelical churches in the U.S., the tune is referred to as "Austrian Hymn". There are several hymns which use the tune, the most familiar (to English speakers) is commonly known as "Glorious things of thee are spoken". 23:07 9 Jan 2004 (UTC)
- Common misconception, Paul. It was officially titled 'Das Lied der Deutschen' by Heinrich Hoffmann von Fallersleben (1798-1874) when he wrote the words in 1841 to the 1798 tune by Joseph Haydn (1732-1809). The song appears as Nr 118 in the monumental 2-volume Volksliederbuch für Männerchor, edited under the general direction of the then-elderly scholar Freiherr Rochus von Liliencron (1820-1912), and published under the auspices of the Kommission für das Deutsche Volksliederbuch (Leipzig, C.F.Peters, 1906).
- According to the annotation, Haydn composed the tune to be the national anthem of Austria after being impressed on a visit to London by how deeply the English were moved by 'God Save Great George the King'. He fitted his newly-composed tune to the words of the poem 'Gott Erhalte Franz den Kaiser', written the year before by L.L.Haschka.--MMT
Omission of the first verse: excessive political correctness
I think the omitted first verse of 'Das Lied der Deutschen' is one of the first victims of political correctness. 'Deutschland über Alles' quite clearly refers to love of country above all things, and not to any political or territorial aspirations. [unsigned comment]
The song is often called Deutschland ueber Alles, simply because those are the opening words of the first stanza. It is virtually unknown today that the expression "über alles", or "before all [others]" refers not to the conquest or enslavement of other countries or the establishment of German hegemony over other peoples, but rather to a call for all Germans to abandon their concept of being a subject or citizen of this or that principality or region (such as Bavaria or Prussia) and to realize the common bond they had with one another by simply being German. This concept was considered "revolutionary" at the time the words were written in 1841, since loyalty to "Germany" was considered by the princelings and kings of the disunited Reich (divided into 40-plus separate states) to be disloyalty to themselves. This "All-German" idea was suspect because it was also associated with the rising middle classes and their suppressed Frankfurt assembly of 1848. [unsigned comment]
Some additional information to be included in the article
Some of this my be worth to be included in the article.
- If I (as a German) was asked on the street, what the name of the anthem was, I would answer with "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit". "Deutschland über alles" is a name only in so far, as it is common to refer to a piece of lyric by its first verse. "Deutschlandlied" and "Lied der Deutschen" are both understandable.
- "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" was printed on the german DM-coins and is now printed on the Euro coins (and is the state motto).
- The hymn of the GDR was "Auferstanden aus Ruinen" (Risen form Ruins). Informally called after its composer the "Becher-Hymne". The text was made to match the composition of the Deutschlandlied. Becher made a composition matching the text of Auferstanden aus Ruinen. Consequently both hymns can be sung on both compisitons.
- Shortly after reunification Wolf Biermann made the "Kinder-Hymne" (hymn of the children) that also matches DL and AAR. This was meant as an better alterneative.
[unsigned comment]
- "Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit" is actually not printed on Euro coins, the german Euros just have the Bundesadler or the oak seedling/sapling on the back. --Deelkar (talk) 03:26, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
- there is no law and no passage in the constitution (Grundgesetz) at all about this song, neither to make it the Anthem nor to forbid singing of the first 2 stanzas. The Bundespräsident R.v. Weizsäcker and Bundeskanzler H. Kohl (Chancellor) speaking for the government agreed on keeping the customary 3rd stanza as hymn. (August 1991) publicised in the Bundesgesetzblatt 19 Nov 1991, (BGBl. I S. 2135) --Deelkar 05:24, 4 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Reasons for reversion (2 June 2004)
I've reverted the previous contribution since it adds some factually inaccurate statements. In particular, no nation called "Austria-Hungary" existed in 1797; that was a later historical development. The revision also implied that Haydn was writing what he thought was a national anthem; this is also not correct, as the song was only made into an official anthem after Haydn's lifetime. The other change was the claim that Fallersleben wanted a united Germany to include Austria. I think it would be fine to include this (reverting my reversion), but only if the person who wrote this can say what his/her factual source is. Suitable sources might include a biography of Fallersleben, a collection of his letters, etc. Thanks, Opus33 19:00, 2 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Haydn and Austria
"Haydn wrote it because he had been requested to provide a patriotic song for Austria, his native country. The words provided to Haydn were "Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser" ("God preserve Franz the Emperor"), Franz being at the time the reigning Austrian emperor Francis II." -- I changed this for two reasons:
- Francis II was not Austrian Emperor in 1797. He became so only in 1806. In 1797, he was Holy Roman Emperor, King of Germany, and Archduke of Austria. See the article on Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor. In fact, "Gott erhalte..." does not mention Austria at all, but it does mention "German lands" in the last stanza.
- Strictly speaking, Austria was not yet a country, but a state of the Holy Roman Empire.
In summary: The whole discussion about the tune being Austrian is pointless, because in 1797, Austria was a part of Germany; and while there was no Germany in 1841, Austria was still a member of the German Confederation at the time. --Chl 02:44, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
