Talk: Boer War
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An event mentioned in this article is an October 11 selected anniversary.
How does one officially dispute the neutrality of an article? This article is clearly biased, and not only that, it ends with a philosophical/religious thesis, meandering down an ally about St Paul!
The "more about" is far too much a personal value judgement about the war (not to mention that it is an expounding of a certain world view in general, this article should not be a soap box for people to promote their personal opinions) than it is an objective analysis. By this I mean the moralizing about war in general and the desire for gold, etc. It is also self-evidently biased against the British.
The killing of 25000 civilians was genocide! Nice going K of K!
Just my opinion: Because the army was not recognized or paid, many of the Boer civilians killed were actually military guerillas. This, however, does not excuse the Concentration Camp tactic used by the British toward military victory.
Debra Summers 1/6/04
Please. The 'More Details' section can be done better. A writer says:
They acted in ways designed to inflame tensions and cause fighting to begin. Cape Colony governor Alfred Milner was one of such men. He believed that the British were natural rulers and that British rule was best while simultaneously believing that it was somehow morally wrong for Englishmen to be ruled by others. It can easily be seen how Milner had no desire for a peaceful solution to the problems in South Africa.
"It can easily be seen"? How? Please prove your point. Saying things like this, with no thing written to back it up, does not serve your cause. If you feel so strongly about Milner, please add content to the page on him, with some facts. There is no content there now.
RayKiddy 07:48, 25 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I, also, would like to know more detail as to why it was obvious that Milner did not want a peaceful solution; though I agree with the assumption. Britain had too much to lose at this time in history for the Boers to have free will in deciding their destiny (with WW1 on the horizon and Germany at the side of the Dutch).
Debra Summers 1/6/04
A few things about the article can change.
It should be noted that the english armed over 30,000 indigenous people. It was not common practice between western nations to involve indigenous people in an western war.
- it is not? look at the french-indian war in the 1700's as great counter example. They had been involving them for a long time and this war was no different. tpahl 00:27, 20 May 2004 (UTC)
- The Boers and British both agreed not to arm indigineous peoples in what was a "white mans' war". They had agreed, however, to let them participate as scouts or drivers. The British did later see that the Zulu could be used to extend their military presence and speed the end of the war so they armed them in 1901. Jason 21:11, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The last of the boers did not just surender at the end of the boer war. They elected members to negotiate for peace. There were several thousand boers still in the field at the end of the boer war.
The block-houses and "drives" instituted by the british were not very effective. The article gives the impression that the guerilla tacktics of the boers were not effective. The total british millatary strength in South Africa reached 500,000 men when the boers had only 88,000 men(5.6 times more). (figures on www.onwar.com)
Most of the boers had no millitary training and the british were proffesional soldiers.
The article could also mention Emily Hobhouse who tried to create awearness of
the bad situation in the concentration camps but were ostracised in the press.
aa 19/01/2004
I disagree the writer above because concentration camps need mention. Emily was one of the few who stood up to this policy. It is well documented in South African histroy and will not go away or be brushed under the carpet. Boer War or the also known as "The Last Gentlemen's War" is reknowned for many things eg. concentration camps, British uniform changing from red to karki, gurealla warefare and many more. --Jcw69 06:47, 1 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Neutrality
It is hard to stay neutral in an article of this nature. This war has two sides and a lot of South African problems (pass cultural hatred) stems from this war. I agree we must stay neutral in writing of this article but the truth must be revelled before forgiving can happen. I am a child of colonialism and must not brush this under the carpet because I don’t like what my forefathers did. --Jcw69 09:26, 7 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Collapsing the two Second Boer War sections together
I have tried to merge the two sections without attempting to resolve the POV dispute. Whatever the arguments are I don't think that the article really needs to have two sections on the same thing. I have also eliminated a good deal of what I felt did not add any information on the subject. "The temptation of riches has led to many conflicts in the world, and this remained true in the south of Africa." is a nice piece of writing but IMHO not appropriate for an encyclopedia with its high information density.
As far as the other debates on this page here is my two-pence worth.
- "It can easily be seen how Milner had no desire for a peaceful solution to the problems in South Africa.". I can't easily see it from what is in the article and it should be removed unless someone adds something to make it easily seen.
- "several key British colonial leaders favoured a war with the Boer republics". This is a bit that I shrunk. Even so - few people favour war on its own, they favour annexation of another country, replacing Saddam or whatever - a war is usually a means and not an end. It should say what their real goal was. And if there were several powerful people who held this view, then name more than one - presumably Rhodes and Beit and maybe some more.
- "He believed that the British were natural rulers..." I would shorten this sentence. IMHO this is probably correct since most "middle class" Victorian Britons took this view but the back half of the sentence doesn't add anything except a moral judgement on Milner.
- "to thwart an attempt made by the Transvaal Republic to link up with German South West Africa.". What does "link up" mean? Join the German empire? Exchange Christmas cards? It should be clarified.
- The concentration camps issue is an important part of the history of the second Boer war and its political consequences; and more could be added. Although they have particularly horrific connotations to us now, this was not the case when they were first created, only once conditions deteriorated (and the public became aware of it). The article correctly bears much of this out. However it contains verbage which I haven't removed - e.g. "The tragedy of the concentration camps can be described in the toll it took on the people held within them." - well how else would they be tragic? Its nice to see the figures and the comparison with military casualties but I would like to see a description of why people died too, and also the political fallout.
- There is a lot of hyperbole still. "inept" is fine when describing General Buller, but "hopelessly inept" is hyperbole; The difference is that Buller was out of his depth fighting the Boers with their modern weapons and tactics but must have been competent enough in other areas to have reached a general. Ditto "amazing foresight", there are plenty of historical precedents for Kruger and his contempories to have known about for people not to to be amazed, so I think amazing is too strong->"considerable foresight", "famous Bushveldt Carbaniers" - not as famous as Elvis Presley->"Bushveldt Carbaniers" etc.
- Did the war affect the non-European population? If so then that deserves mentioning. --Jll 10:33, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Seems to me as if a few edits should restore NPOV without losing the Boer perception of the war. As a Boer descendant I have never had a good insight into the British public opinion of the war at the time. I would like to see some references to newspaper articles/ points of view expressed in Brittain at the time or was this such a minor engagement for the British empire that it did not receive much attention in the UK press at the time? --Renier Maritz 12:46, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)
