Talk: Alsace

From open-encyclopedia.com - the free encyclopedia.

Wondering how to edit this région entry? The Wikipedia:WikiProject French régions standards might help.

Identity

Since its conquest by Louis XIV, Alsace has been more loyal to France than German, because Louis XIV freed the serfs thus allowing greater growth and freedom. THis should be placed in the article.

---

On the list of notable Alsatians, Albert Schweitzer is conspicuous by his absence. User:sca 5 Oct 04

Political bias

The history section in the article is totally biased (with anti-French/German nationalist approach), and needs to be seriously rewritten. Hardouin 03:00, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Can you explain the nature of the bias? Thanks Guettarda 23:02, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Please see my comment at Talk:Lorraine --Tkinias 01:36, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Revisions for NPOV. I suggest the NPOV tag now be removed.

• "Alsace and Lorraine were reunited with Germany after the Franco-Prussian War of 1870" - corrected; Germany did not exist before 1870 so there was no question of reunification
• "After World War I those Alsatian, who moved in from other parts of Germany, were expelled. The re-establishment of German identity was reversed following the German surrender in 1918." > "After World War I the re-establishment of German identity in Alsace was reversed, while Alsatians who came originally from Germany were expelled." I.e., "other parts of" removed
• "while putting a halt to the anti-German oppression" = "oppression" changed to "discrimination", a correct and less emotive term
• "The war-torn area was given again in 1944 to France, which had then free hands to restore its policies." > "..which restored its policy of promoting the French language."

Rollo 13:49, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The flaws run far deeper than a few offensive expressions. As I suggested at Talk:Lorraine, we need a discussion of the Alsace-Lorraine issue. The problem is that the "two sisters" have immense potency as nationalist symbols on both sides of the border, and both sides try to paint the regions as "really French" or "really German", when in fact they were neither for most of the history, because nationalism hadn't been invented yet. And the "anti-German" policies were not anti-German, but standard French republican centralization and homogenizing -- the same process going on in Provence, Bretagne, etc. --Tkinias 14:09, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I agree. It is clearly a more complex issue than simply one of two colliding nationalisms. But as to the question of whether the article is even-handed, I can't find anything factually suspect. And the tone seems to me reasonably fair to both sides. Now it would seem to be just a question of adding a section to highlight the points you raise. --Rollo 10:31, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What about a new article that both Alsace and Lorraine can link to? I might be able to write one up after the end of the semester here. —Tkinias 11:56, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Why not? As it happens I don't know a lot about this subject - I was just trying a bit of neutral dispute resolution. Still, the NPOV tag still seems to be there... Rollo 02:00, 27 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Everybody knows-Alsatians are pseudo-French. VIVE L'ALSACE ALLEMANDE !!!

Alsace/Elsass

Alsace was part of the German-speaking territory of the Holy Roman Empire until 1648 when most of it was wrested from the Emperor by the King of France in the Treaty of Westphalia which concluded the Thirty Years' War. The Emperor ceded Alsace outright to avoid having the King of France as member of his estates. Later in the same century, Strasbourg was also seized by Louis XIV, who reinstated Catholicism.

Whilst Alsace is technically German-speaking (and, strictly speaking, most German speakers do not speak Standard German but Alsatian dialect, a dialect identifiable as German without any doubt whatsoever), it is difficult to say whether it is 'German' or 'French'.

The following points may be of note.

1. The first-ever printed German Bible was published in Strasbourg in 1466 . During the 16th century, there were probably in excess of 3000 books printed in Strasbourg. Only three were in French. The rest were in German (the vast majority), Latin or other languages such as Greek. Strasbourg was a very important centre of German protestantism and many of Luther's works were published there during the sixteenth century. These facts tend to be overlooked by histories written in French.

2. A German nationhood or even nationality was only just begining to emerge within the multi-ethnic and multi-lingual Holy Roman Empire in the 17th century. Therefore it would not be correct to say 'a part of Germany was siezed by the French'. More important to the ordinary subject were his freedoms.

3. After the defeat of Napoleon, the Austrian Emperor refused to let Alsace become part of Prussia for fear of Prussian strength.

4. Alsatian German was the main language of most people until the twentieth century; however, the ruling classes and wealthier middle classes tended to speak French in the nineteenth century.

5. It may well be the case that German and French languages acquire a social connotation during the 19th century, and emerging social conflict exacerbates the language and national question.

6. When Alsace-Lorraine was reunited with the German-speaking world, in the German Reich under Bismark in 1871, its status was inferior to other German Länder.

7. There were migrations from Alsace of wealthier French speakers at this time, and many German-speakers moved in. At this time, standard German became the official language, but it is not correct to say that French was banned or ignored. There was a (albeit biased) dual lingualism.

8. The Germans did build the area up, they industrialised, and there are many monuments to this period (1871-1919), such as the railways, the Postal Service, the 'Ville Allemande' in Strasbourg, etc. The population grew and the region prospered. The university was founded.

9. Where the sympathies of the Alsatians lay at the outbreak of the First World War is hard to say. They were enlisted to fight, of course, and did so often in the remote East (East Prussia). This may, or may not, be a token of the German Army's uncertainty about their loyalties. Often Alsatians were described unflatteringly by officers.

10. After the First World War, significantly, the French refused a plebiscite in the region and expelled all Germans who had settled there during 1971-1919. This was an early example of 'ethnic cleansing'.

11. German was suppressed in the period between the World Wars.

12. Undoubtedly, German rule 1940-44 was savage. Again, no plebiscite was granted after the Second World War, unlike the Saar region.

13. It seems strange, at least to the eye, to imagine an historian as eminent as Phillipe Dollinger arguing for France with such a German name; it is odder to find Alsatian speakers with German names saying they are French. During the Wilhelmine period, over 80% of the region described themselves as German-speaking in the censuses.

14. There have been movements for Autonomy since the 19th century.

15. In conclusion, it is possible to say, on balance, that Alsace, and Strasbourg, belong traditionally to the German Kulturkreis. However, it was never part of a German nation except 1871-1919. It is interesting to speculate how a plebiscite might have gone after the First World War. After the Second World War, German became 'unfashionable' as the language of dictatorship, and French was eagerly embraced by the inhabitants. This is now giving way to a slight resurgence of interest in German roots and Alsatian dialect. However, in the cities, virtually all speak French. French people are far more sensitive about Alsace than Germans; e.g. a museum worker in the Museum of Alsatian Life in Strasbourg reacted indignantly when he was asked about the state of the German language in Strasbourg. His reply was 'ce n'est pas l'allemand, c'est l'alsacien!' The French never want really to use the word 'German' in connexion with Alsace.

16. Finally, it is worth noting that the French have always had a far more prescriptive and illiberal language policy when compared to the Germans. Native historians have always tended to be biased about the affiliation of Alsace. We need to remember, too, that language does not define nationality, contrary to what Francois I first said in the 16th century.

A notable link for German-speakers is www.elsass-lothringen.de

T A Francis